"One True Church and related topics."

[Wade]

ICOC and COC are very different... Josh, was you experience more CoC of ICoC?

AIC 2017 was CoC background people

KFW 16 and 17 were Boston people. I’m guessing that’s more ICoC background people.

I suppose I should be glad they are allowed to come and try to get everyone else to question their salvation; that way I am allowed to come too and privately hold to my beliefs about my church which I keep to myself, don’t push on anybody, and try to be meek when questioned about them.

I don't know many folks from your church, but the ones I do run into seem very meek in general, and don't offer to talk about their beliefs about church. But the elephant in the room is that everybody knows their official belief is that they are the only true church, and the rest of us do not have valid baptism, communion, etc.

The point isn't that they aren't meek or that they push their beliefs on others. The point is they have a doctrine about church that is fallacious.

And so it is a stumbling block to newcomers especially, the very people the event seems to be designed in helping.

[Ernie]

The point isn't that they [Church of God in Christ Mennonite Aka: Holdeman] aren't meek or that they push their beliefs on others. The point is they have a doctrine about church that is fallacious.

And so it is a stumbling block to newcomers especially, the very people the event seems to be designed in helping.

Yes, I don't know which is worse.
1. People being dogmatic with their beliefs thereby making seekers feel condemned if they don't agree with them.
or
2. People being meek and quiet about their beliefs, thereby making seekers feel welcome, with the seekers discovering down the road that they are wrong if they disagree.

As nasty as the first is, at least a seeker knows up front what he is getting into.

[Ernie]

I sense here that attendees are required to already have a specific belief system or else are not welcome to attend.

I don’t have a quarrel with this, but it does seem odd, particularly if that belief system isn’t well spelled out. I would have thought my own beliefs are well aligned with Ernie’s, but this thread has taught me that not a single church I have been a part of or regularly visited (FEC, Midwest, independent Beachy, Keystone, CMC, ARC Hutterite, and now Holdeman) clears the bar.

I don't know of any denomination that clears the bar. I do know of lots of individuals who are striving for the same NT ideal. That is what this seeker's event is about.

You still haven't told us that I am aware of whether you believe that Church of God in Christ Mennonite COGICM to be the true church and that outside of this church there is no true baptism or true communion. I know that many in this church believe this (or something similar). If you don't believe this, then our beliefs are quite well aligned. If you do believe this, then we simply agree on most things except for this cardinal issue and this issue is at the very center of Jesus' gospel.

[mike]

I sense here that attendees are required to already have a specific belief system or else are not welcome to attend.

I don’t have a quarrel with this, but it does seem odd, particularly if that belief system isn’t well spelled out. I would have thought my own beliefs are well aligned with Ernie’s, but this thread has taught me that not a single church I have been a part of or regularly visited (FEC, Midwest, independent Beachy, Keystone, CMC, ARC Hutterite, and now Holdeman) clears the bar.

I don't understand why you say this. None of those groups other than Holdemans are disqualified from the gathering, and even those are welcome if they are "seriously open to questioning [the one true church] belief."

I really hope you can come. But I guess that's depends on whether you are willing to put the Holdeman sacred cow on the altar.

[Josh]

I don't know of any denomination that clears the bar. I do know of lots of individuals who are striving for the same NT ideal. That is what this seeker's event is about.

Yes, but what is the requirement to achieve fellowship at the Seekers' Gathering (which is really what this whole discussion has been about)? Is it okay if I affirm and will commune with someone who does not believe and practice that men should wear only long pants? What about if I commune with someone who does not practice non-resistance? What about if I commune with someone who is divorced & remarried?

You still haven't told us that I am aware of whether you believe that Church of God in Christ Mennonite COGICM to be the true church and that outside of this church there is no true baptism or true communion. I know that many in this church believe this (or something similar).

I think this is a misrepresentation of what most people in the COGICM believe, but I don't really want to argue or belabour that point.

I believe (and people in COGICM believe as well) that baptism and communion are merely symbols, and that many people are born again and are saved apart from receiving baptism and communion from a "true church". We believe it is best if we judge those within our body, rather than those without, and so do not have a position on the status of every other baptism and communion that happens outside of our church.

I'm not even sure how much this sets us apart from other Anabaptists. The Old German Baptist Brethren (other than when New Conference took a new position in 2009) require their own baptism for new members. Virtually all conservative Anabaptists practice close communion. Virtually all of them would not commune with me or extend the Christian greeting to me, since I am unbaptised and not currently a member anywhere. I assume you wouldn't accept me at communion either, so I don't really see why you and I are even discussing why I shouldn't attend because the church I am a part of also practices a closed communion.

Perhaps I should talk less about belief and talk more about practice. When my best friend got baptised into a Midwest church last year, I rejoiced and attended it. Even though he wears short pants sometimes and this is condoned by Midwest Mennonite Fellowship churches, I still count him as a brother. I don't know if he would be welcome at your Seekers' Gathering or not, as he has no conviction to wear long pants, and apparently nobody else at his church thinks men wearing long pants should be enforced.

Another one of my best friends and his wife are in instruction class at a Midwest church and I strongly encouraged them to go and be a part of it. I rejoice with the instruction they are receiving and look forward to them being members some day, even though they don't believe in the head-covering the same way I do, feeling at liberty not to wear it other than during prayer & prophecy, which is also apparently the position some Midwest churches hold now. I count him as a brother and he and I take many opportunities to witness together. I have never, not once, steered any of the people we have witnessed to to my own church, although I would not be ashamed to do so if the geography and logistics made sense.

One of his friends that we both witnessed to is also attending there now and also wants to seek baptism and instruction, and gave his life to the Lord earlier this year and has been sober the longest he has been since his teen years, over a decade ago. I count him as a brother as well.

As far as communion goes, the last time I partook was with my best friend and another friend of ours who have all worked on being mutually accountable to each other for financial and lifestyle issues. My church did not have a problem with this, although I would be expected not to do that if I were a member, as I suspect your church would as well. One of the people participating did not hold strongly to nonresistance and regularly wears shorts, but given the other mutual accountability between us, I felt the bonds of communion and brotherhood between us were worth observing the Lord's Supper for.

If you don't believe this, then our beliefs are quite well aligned. If you do believe this, then we simply agree on most things except for this cardinal issue and this issue is at the very center of Jesus' gospel.

Is it? I think things like loving one's enemies, believing in Jesus' to save us from sin and in the resurrection, are things at the centre of Jesus' gospel. There are many, many churches out there that would agree with you in being against one true church doctrine, but you will find precious little else they agree with conservative Anabaptists on.

[Josh]

I don't understand why you say this. None of those groups other than Holdemans are disqualified from the gathering, and even those are welcome if they are "seriously open to questioning [the one true church] belief."

I really hope you can come. But I guess that's depends on whether you are willing to put the Holdeman sacred cow on the altar.

This seems to have basically turned into a heresy trial, where I am on trial for how much I hold to various Holdeman doctrines. And the only acceptable answer to not be disfellowshipped from your Seekers' Gathering seems to be to swear that I consider everyone else in my church to be a heretic and to be outside of Jesus' kingdom.

I am not willing to do that, and demanding that of anyone else who is Holdeman is a great way to make sure the sectarian walls between you and us continue to rise even higher and higher.

[mike]

I don't understand why you say this. None of those groups other than Holdemans are disqualified from the gathering, and even those are welcome if they are "seriously open to questioning [the one true church] belief."

I really hope you can come. But I guess that's depends on whether you are willing to put the Holdeman sacred cow on the altar.

This seems to have basically turned into a heresy trial, where I am on trial for how much I hold to various Holdeman doctrines. And the only acceptable answer to not be disfellowshipped from your Seekers' Gathering seems to be to swear that I consider everyone else in my church to be a heretic and to be outside of Jesus' kingdom.

I am not willing to do that, and demanding that of anyone else who is Holdeman is a great way to make sure the sectarian walls between you and us continue to rise even higher and higher.

The thing that we are "demanding" of you is that you don't hold to the "one true church" doctrine. That is truly the most sectarian, divisive, and exclusive concept that is at issue here. Is that really too much to ask to attend a seeker's conference where folks are looking together at the commonalities among Anabaptist groups that may be attractive to seekers?

I believe (and people in COGICM believe as well) that baptism and communion are merely symbols, and that many people are born again and are saved apart from receiving baptism and communion from a "true church". We believe it is best if we judge those within our body, rather than those without, and so do not have a position on the status of every other baptism and communion that happens outside of our church.

Now we are getting somewhere. I was not aware that COGICM believes people can be born again and saved apart from membership in their church. And I thought that they do not believe in the validity of baptism and communion (and marriages?) outside of their church. I am very interested to learn that this is not the case. Are you sure that this view represents the official church position? Does the COGICM believe that people who leave their church and join another are still saved?

[Heirbyadoption]

I don't understand why you say this. None of those groups other than Holdemans are disqualified from the gathering, and even those are welcome if they are "seriously open to questioning [the one true church] belief."

I really hope you can come. But I guess that's depends on whether you are willing to put the Holdeman sacred cow on the altar.

This seems to have basically turned into a heresy trial, where I am on trial for how much I hold to various Holdeman doctrines. And the only acceptable answer to not be disfellowshipped from your Seekers' Gathering seems to be to swear that I consider everyone else in my church to be a heretic and to be outside of Jesus' kingdom.

I am not willing to do that, and demanding that of anyone else who is Holdeman is a great way to make sure the sectarian walls between you and us continue to rise even higher and higher.

Josh, I've stayed out of this discussion overall, as I'm not one of the organizers, but in light of your above statement (bolding mine), I don't see any "heresy trial", only a conversation that you are the primary continuer of (which isn't necessarily wrong, just a fact) regarding whether you, as a self-identified Holdeman, would be welcome at the SG18.

What I've picked up from Ernie/Mike in this discussion (if I may paraphrase) is that those who actually believe the "one true church doctrine", regardless whether they're Holdeman or anything else, are not really welcome at this meeting. There's no swearing required and no pushing anybody out of the kingdom, only a recognition that the "one true church" doctrine being held/practiced by a denomination is either Biblical or unBiblical. If you don't believe the "one true church" doctrine (which has been Holdeman 101 theology as long as I've known Holdemans, unless they've formally repudiated their position on that or clarified #5 of their baptismal vows), then all you have to do is say so publicly and it seems to me all is resolved.

So it's really this simple, as far as I can tell: do you, Josh Rodd, believe and support the Church of God In Christ - Mennonite concept of the COGICM being the one true church, or at least that they are the only part of the one true church that you can be sure of?

[Josh]

Now we are getting somewhere. I was not aware that COGICM believes people can be born again and saved apart from membership in their church.

Yes. At least, every congregation I have visited and the people I have spoken with feel this way. I have so far run into one person who feels people outside our church are not saved. She is a recent convert and when she said that, it let the air out of the room. I believe she is extended grace to express that opinion due to her Church of Christ background and the long journey they have had through churches that did not come very close to New Testament belief.

For starters, anyone who is not a member (such as myself) is not considered "part of the church", yet a frequent topic of conversation is "What was your new birth experience?" "When were you born again?" and so on.

In short, the COGICM is not the same as Reformed Mennonites or Church of God Restoration.

And I thought that they do not believe in the validity of baptism and communion (and marriages?) outside of their church. I am very interested to learn that this is not the case. Are you sure that this view represents the official church position?

Holdemans don't view baptism, communion, or marriage as "sacramental", so they don't believe the first two things are necessary for salvation. They believe baptism and church membership are the church recognising something that already happened: someone becomes born again, and once the rest of the church bears witness to that, "if the Holy Spirit accepts this person as one of his own, how can we not accept them"?

They view marriage outside of their church as valid. They do have higher expectations of marriages that took place to someone knowledgable of church teachings versus someone who was in ignorance of church teachings.

As far as an "official church position", the "official church position" in that the New Testament is the final authority, although past conference decisions or confessions can be guidelines, sometimes quite authoritative guidelines.

I am basing my view of the church's practices and positions based on what the leadership at my home congregation preach and have told me, plus the conversations I have had when visiting other congregations.

Does the COGICM believe that people who leave their church and join another are still saved?

The position of everyone in the church I have met or talked to is that anyone who is expelled from the church is not right with God, and that we should not expel anyone who is right with God. The problem is not joining another church - the problem is leaving the church.

[Josh]

So it's really this simple, as far as I can tell: do you, Josh Rodd, believe and support the Church of God In Christ - Mennonite concept of the COGICM being the one true church, or at least that they are the only part of the one true church that you can be sure of?

I believe and support the church's teachings on this issue as I understand them.

That does not mean I believe and support what you think the church's teachings are. For example, earlier in this thread the common misconception that we believe anyone who isn't a member in our church isn't saved.