Holy and Righteous

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Holy and Righteous

Post by RZehr »

Two words often spoken together, with two different meanings.

Are you holy and righteous? Are you saved?
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Are we differentiating between justification and sanctification in this, or did you have another tack in mind?
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RZehr
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by RZehr »

The question I have in mind is, How do you view yourself? Do you claim these words? If so, how do you claim them? If not, why not?



*I know many people consider different meanings to "being saved" or "am saved", and I don't want to split that open on this thread. I probably could have left that line off, but it does hint to what I had in mind.
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RZehr
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by RZehr »

Do you consider yourself a kind person? Do you consider yourself a generous person?
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Hats Off
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by Hats Off »

My son and I have become involved with some neighbours who seem to be having a family feud after father passed away. My son has ended up talking with brothers on both sides - I have only talked with one brother but do business with one of the other brothers. My son asked for a bit of advice - he gets as many as 5 calls a day. What should he do? I told him some of our church brothers would just wash their hands and would refuse to get involved. We can't help it; our heart tells us it must be possible to do something for these men. They are all JWs. Are we kind or generous or just plain foolish?
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RZehr
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by RZehr »

Maybe you are being a peacemaker.
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RZehr
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by RZehr »

My questions, are not primarily intended for deep self reflection. My thoughts are sort of running along the lines of why do we feel comfortable with some labels and discomfort with other labels?

For example, we are called to be holy and righteous and yet why don't we say that we are? We don't see this hesitance claiming the word Christian. Why are we bold enough to say that we are little Christs, yet not say that we are holy?

Without holiness no one will see the Lord, and there are more verses that tell us to be holy.
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MaxPC
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr wrote:My questions, are not primarily intended for deep self reflection. My thoughts are sort of running along the lines of why do we feel comfortable with some labels and discomfort with other labels?

For example, we are called to be holy and righteous and yet why don't we say that we are? We don't see this hesitance claiming the word Christian. Why are we bold enough to say that we are little Christs, yet not say that we are holy?

Without holiness no one will see the Lord, and there are more verses that tell us to be holy.
My thinking is that holy and righteous are adjectives describing a state of excellence; that it would be considered bragging in our culture to describe ourselves as being in a state of excellence. On the other hand we call ourselves Christians because it identifies who we follow, not a personal state of excellence.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Bootstrap
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by Bootstrap »

I shared part of this in another thread, but I think it's relevant to the questions being asked here. I think this is the attitude we should have.
Philippians 3 wrote:If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained.
I do not see Paul claiming that he has gained the status of holy and righteous. And I also think this parable is relevant:
Luke 18 wrote:He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
I think that parable is still relevant for those who have been saved.
1 John 1 wrote:This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
RZehr
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Re: Holy and Righteous

Post by RZehr »

MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote:My questions, are not primarily intended for deep self reflection. My thoughts are sort of running along the lines of why do we feel comfortable with some labels and discomfort with other labels?

For example, we are called to be holy and righteous and yet why don't we say that we are? We don't see this hesitance claiming the word Christian. Why are we bold enough to say that we are little Christs, yet not say that we are holy?

Without holiness no one will see the Lord, and there are more verses that tell us to be holy.
My thinking is that holy and righteous are adjectives describing a state of excellence; that it would be considered bragging in our culture to describe ourselves as being in a state of excellence. On the other hand we call ourselves Christians because it identifies who we follow, not a personal state of excellence.
Thank you.
This is true and understandable if we understand holy & righteous to mean morally pure, or spiritually perfect, or a personal state of excellence, which is how many people understand these words. And in this case, the opposite of holy would be sinful, or vile, or wicked.
And if we understand these words in the same way, then that can explain our distaste for claiming them, because we feel that we are claiming something that is wholly Gods in a wrongful way.

But if we understand holiness to mean "set apart for a sacred cause", or "set apart for Gods purpose" and the opposite of holy to be "common", then it is easier to accept the word.
Consider 1 Peter 1:14-16 - As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Why would we be told to be holy if we are not to be holy? If I said that I am kind, that might be taken in stride by the hearer. But if I were to say that I am holy, I would be considered a pompous ignoramus.

Given the current general understanding of holy, I'm not promoting that we go around saying that we are holy. But when we don't understand these meanings then when we read these words in the Bible we are coming away with an incomplete understanding of what we just read.

Please correct my thinking on this if needed, or correct my definitions if necessary. This is my understanding right now and I guess I'm just thinking out loud a little bit.

We are called to be righteous and holy. So what does that mean? If we are expected to be such, then there is a way to be such.
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