Early Mennonite Brethren history

[Neto]

"cautionary tail" HA HA. Suppose to be 'cautionary tale'.

[barnhart]

Very interesting Neto. Those were hard times to live through. I imagine the influence of that trauma shapes culture and worldview.

[barnhart]

Neto, you frame this history as a cautionary tale, I'm curious about the conclusions you have reached over time. What does this say to believers in 2020.

[Neto]

Neto, you frame this history as a cautionary tale, I'm curious about the conclusions you have reached over time. What does this say to believers in 2020.

Good question. I think that we should always be trying to put ourselves in the shoes of the people we deal with in business, and in everyday life. This can be seen from a basically self-centered point of view, as in, "How will this person treat me & my family, my people, if they should come to a position of power over me or us?" Or (preferably), we will ask "How will my/our actions today affect this person's or people's response to the Gospel, to the Christ whom we represent?" This is the important question, in my mind. But my people, during that era in Russian history, largely failed in both respects. There were of course exceptions, well perhaps even many. But the failure was common enough that the whole group suffered miserably for it. Also, I cannot help but think that the Gospel, the Kingdom of God also suffered.

This above is basically on the personal level - our response to individuals or another people group. But another relationship stands out in the actions of my people in Russia during that time - the political one. During the Czardom, many fawned over the royal family (and this patriotism seems to have been especially strong in the Mennonite Brethren leadership, my own particular background), and although direct military participation was extremely rare, there was a great deal of assistance given to the Czar's armies, in the form of food, transportation of armed forces and also of materiel. (The provisions of medical assistance and establishment of hospitals for military personnel passing through the Mennonite areas I see as proper.) Then when the Germans came in during WWI, the people welcomed them exuberantly, with parades and all sorts of celebration. This (in my opinion) went way too far, and it probably contributed greatly to the level of suffering that was inflicted on them after the Germans were driven out again, and then even more so when the Bolsheviks and the Anarchists took over. In many cases, those involved in these forces had seen the spectacle of enthusiasm when the Germans came in. AND, many of them may well have been servants of the Mennonite "Pans" ("lords").

[barnhart]

My ancestors suffered war and reprisal here in the US, but on a much smaller scale. I'm not away that any were killed outright. Trying to "honor the King" in Washington DC with church doctrine protesting slavery and a stern commitment to nonviolence, was a hard way to live in the Confederacy. To make matters worse the Union army invaded and burned their barns, crops and some houses. Standing by watching did not endear them to their neighbors. Even though this is mild compared to your family story, it has long lasting cultural scars.

[barnhart]

...But another relationship stands out in the actions of my people in Russia during that time - the political one. During the Czardom, many fawned over the royal family... and although direct military participation was extremely rare, there was a great deal of assistance given to the Czar's armies, in the form of food, transportation of armed forces and also of materiel. (The provisions of medical assistance and establishment of hospitals for military personnel passing through the Mennonite areas I see as proper.) Then when the Germans came in during WWI, the people welcomed them exuberantly, with parades and all sorts of celebration. This (in my opinion) went way too far, and it probably contributed greatly to the level of suffering that was inflicted on them after the Germans were driven out again, and then even more so when the Bolsheviks and the Anarchists took over. In many cases, those involved in these forces had seen the spectacle of enthusiasm when the Germans came in. AND, many of them may well have been servants of the Mennonite "Pans" ("lords").

I imagine it felt very comforting to enjoy the favor and protection of leaders and regimes you respect. To have this franchise stripped away and suffer under revolutionaries, this is not a common experience for people in the US. We could learn a lot from this. Do not trust in Kings whose power is so fleeting.

[Neto]

...But another relationship stands out in the actions of my people in Russia during that time - the political one. During the Czardom, many fawned over the royal family... and although direct military participation was extremely rare, there was a great deal of assistance given to the Czar's armies, in the form of food, transportation of armed forces and also of materiel. (The provisions of medical assistance and establishment of hospitals for military personnel passing through the Mennonite areas I see as proper.) Then when the Germans came in during WWI, the people welcomed them exuberantly, with parades and all sorts of celebration. This (in my opinion) went way too far, and it probably contributed greatly to the level of suffering that was inflicted on them after the Germans were driven out again, and then even more so when the Bolsheviks and the Anarchists took over. In many cases, those involved in these forces had seen the spectacle of enthusiasm when the Germans came in. AND, many of them may well have been servants of the Mennonite "Pans" ("lords").

I imagine it felt very comforting to enjoy the favor and protection of leaders and regimes you respect. To have this franchise stripped away and suffer under revolutionaries, this is not a common experience for people in the US. We could learn a lot from this. Do not trust in Kings whose power is so fleeting.

The Ukrainian TV series about Nestor Makno I mentioned above is actually 12 episodes. I have now watched the first 5. I don't know if other public school systems did any better, but the only mention of Russia in world history classes (as I recall) was about the evil Soviet state - the reason we had drills for the event of an attack of the USSR on America. My only other source of any knowledge about Russia, anything prior to the Soviet era, was from family memories, which were already getting rather distant by then (because my great grandparents & great great grandparents had already left Russia in the late 1800's). I have no ancestors who lived through the upheavals of early 1900's in Russia. I knew about the Bolsheviks, and a bit about Makno, but what I didn't realize until now was how much fighting there was between these groups, or even that Makno was motivated by political ideology (I just knew of him as a murderer, robber, & rapist).
All this to say that now I'm wondering; If the US government collapsed, what different factions would gain control of military weaponry, and what sort of turmoil would we experience, and how would we respond in such a changed environment?
(Maybe I should have started a separate thread about this in the Politics section, since this thread doesn't get much exposure. But I'm not into politics, and it's more of a curiosity in the political sense, my main interest being in the spiritual question as to how we would respond. Could we learn from the mistakes of my people in Russia? Or would we repeat the same mistakes? More importantly, are we, right now, repeating the same mistakes that my people did in the time previous to the collapse of the Russian Empire?)

[barnhart]

... If the US government collapsed, what different factions would gain control of military weaponry, and what sort of turmoil would we experience, and how would we respond in such a changed environment?

... Could we learn from the mistakes of my people in Russia? Or would we repeat the same mistakes? More importantly, are we, right now, repeating the same mistakes that my people did in the time previous to the collapse of the Russian Empire?)

Powerful questions.

I had a history professor who tried to collapse the distance between history and current events by bringing to class paragraphs snipped without context from various political movements and encouraging the class to guess their origin. It was very difficult. Seemingly diverse parties or movements had similar stated goals and values. It is so important to be on guard before hitching your cart to someone's horse.

[barnhart]

I see a link between the history in this thread and DanZ thread about addressing militancy and radicalization in the conservative church. I haven't witnessed it much personally, but it might be good for this history to get out more.

[Josh]

I see a link between the history in this thread and DanZ thread about addressing militancy and radicalization in the conservative church. I haven't witnessed it much personally, but it might be good for this history to get out more.

I feel it’s a bit too slanted with the view that World War II had good guys and bad guys (where the good guys = the Soviets).