Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Ernie
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Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Ernie »

Hats Off wrote:Do you class the Münsterites as Anabaptists?
CADude wrote:Yes they did rebaptize but a lot of other Anabaptists rejected aspects of their doctrine.
Heirbyadoption wrote:I wasn't really thinking of Munster, but I suppose they would fall under a perversion of general Anabaptism.
A similar question:
Were the antichrist's in 1 John 2:18-19 Christians?
I would say no, because they did not commonly believe and practice what Christians of that time believed and practiced. Were they followers of Jesus in any particular ways? Perhaps... Christian was a term given by contemporaries to describe folks of a certain belief and practice. John did not feel any need to own them in any way.

Anabaptist was a term given by contemporaries to describe folks of a certain belief and practice. If there were folks who deviated from that belief and practice, I don't think anyone needs to feel obligated to own them.
Last edited by justme on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: add the word "not" per request
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RZehr
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by RZehr »

Well put.
They were contemporaries of our ancestors. They were Anabaptists in the strict sense that they rebaptized. But as far as being part of the movement, what else did they have in common? Doesn’t seem right if one shared practice makes them one of our ancestors.
The Baptist don’t believe in infant baptism either, and they would rebaptize and don’t seem to have a problem killing the occasional person, or operating a government. Does this make them have to claim them?
But it actually doesn’t make me any difference what they are considered since we are not in any way beholden to them. Most people and most Mennonites wouldn’t even know who thy were.
Each is ultimately accountable for his own actions.
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Josh
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Josh »

It seems we have some confusion between the terms “Anabaptist” and “obedient follower of Christ”.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

I don't think there's one right answer here. GAMEO calls them Anabaptists, and Anabaptists were frequently accused of being Muensterites. Muensterites did practice adult believer baptism, and were called Anabaptists because of that at the time. GAMEO says the leader joined the Anabaptists before going to Münster, being baptized by Jan Matthijsz van Haarlem.

Menno Simons and most other Anabaptists clearly repudiated the Muensterites for polygamy and use of the sword, creating a new government, and other teachings. But Anabaptist was a term given by those who hated Anabaptists, and they gave it to all who practiced adult believer baptism, including the Muensterites. And there are clear historical connections between these groups. Were they "part of the same movement" - they were certainly part of a religious fervor that shook up institutions, historically connected to other Anabaptist groups. But they were a fringe part of the movement that others rejected. I imagine we can all think of fringe Mennonite groups that we would not like to be associated with, but they probably are part of the same movement we are.

I think you are looking for a term that identifies the Christians you most identify with at the time. I don't think they all had a common term that they used to describe themselves, and the terms their enemies used included other people you and I are offended by. So you may need to invent a term. And many of the best terms are already taken ...
Last edited by Bootstrap on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:It seems we have some confusion between the terms “Anabaptist” and “obedient follower of Christ”.
I like "obedient follower of Christ". I think the problem with that term is that people disagree about what that means. But if we don't keep returning to the root, I think we get lost.
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Hats Off
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Hats Off »

Josh wrote:It seems we have some confusion between the terms “Anabaptist” and “obedient follower of Christ”.
As Anabaptists, we are attempting to be obedient followers of the Christ. Today there are some who consider themselves Anabaptist who some don't feel are obedient followers of the Christ. And there may be some obedient followers of Jesus who don't know what we mean by the term Anabaptist.

The Munsterites were considered Anabaptist by the state churches - everyone who rebelled against the established order and rebaptized was considered Anabaptist, which was considered a derogatory term. Today, we have claimed the term Anabaptist for those of us whose ancestors were a "respectable" part of that movement; who sought to live in obedience to the Christ.

GAMEO can rightly call them Anabaptist based on the derogatory useage of the word. But we don't have to consider them as part of our heritage.
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Hats Off »

Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:It seems we have some confusion between the terms “Anabaptist” and “obedient follower of Christ”.
I like "obedient follower of Christ". I think the problem with that term is that people disagree about what that means. But if we don't keep returning to the root, I think we get lost.
I find it difficult to believe that it should always be necessary to return to the root. We have to confirm in our own minds that our ancestors went back to the root, but then we should be able to build on that. It should not be necessary for every generation to ignore what has gone before and start fresh.
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

Hats Off wrote:I find it difficult to believe that it should always be necessary to return to the root. We have to confirm in our own minds that our ancestors went back to the root, but then we should be able to build on that. It should not be necessary for every generation to ignore what has gone before and start fresh.
But if you look at the original Anabaptists, returning to the root was precisely what they called us to do. They rejected the authority of tradition and relying on established practice, calling us to return to Scripture.

Scripture is authoritative, our ancestors are not.
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Hats Off
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Hats Off »

Then what is the point of reading what the early Anabaptists wrote? Now we are creating more work for ourselves. We need to study the original writings plus everything that has been written since? I am not suggesting to accept everything without question but neither do I feel we need to start from scratch every generation.
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Re: Do you class the Muensterites as Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

Hats Off wrote:Then what is the point of reading what the early Anabaptists wrote? Now we are creating more work for ourselves. We need to study the original writings plus everything that has been written since? I am not suggesting to accept everything without question but neither do I feel we need to start from scratch every generation.
Scripture is the first authority. All truth must be tested against Scripture.

Tradition shows us how other Christians understood and lived out Scripture. The fruit that they bore is also an important witness. But if we value tradition, we have to keep going back to read the original texts, because they often don't say what we expect them to say. We reinvent history to suit ourselves. Some traditions we assume are centuries old may be no older than 50 or 70 years, they do not represent the unbroken teaching of a single movement. Together, traditions show us a menu of possible understandings to be tested against Scripture. I am not saying everyone needs to do this - reading these writings tends to be in the domain of scholars. But I do think that is one role that can be useful in the Body of Christ.

And we have to weigh these things, together as a congregation, using reason, experience, and the Holy Spirit.

But Scripture is always primary. And we live it out primarily together as a congregation by the Holy Spirit.
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