Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Neto
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote: Yes, Menno did say we can as individuals know what scripture means. However, as Neto pointed out these individual understandings were to be filtered through the 'brotherhood' to arrive at a consensus on what was the correct interpretation. And, from what I can see, many times there was not this consensus and splits occurred. We have more types of Mennonites in our area where I live than any other major group of Christians. So, as right it may seem to go through a second phase of discernment, through a brotherhood, I don't see where this developed into one pure set of beliefs and practises. It only solidified the beliefs within a local brotherhood. Perhaps someone can explain this to me better if I'm mis-understanding ?
Sorry, but that's not the kind of 'anabaptist' I am. I believe in submission to the truth as revealed in Scripture, so if the 'brotherhood' cannot answer the question of "Show it to me in the Scripture, and I will follow it", then I won't be inclined to submit ON THE LARGER ISSUES - doctrine, that is. On smaller issues like being willing to avoid certain activities because a brother has strong convictions about it, then YES. In other words, I submit to the brotherhood w/o any Scriptural proof on matters of conduct (applications of clear Biblical doctrine), but not on matters of doctrine itself (w/o the "show me in the Book" response).

On divisions within anabaptism: Menno's heart desire was to bring unity to the different groups of 'anabaptists' of his day. So if we would follow him in that quest, we would do well, because that is also the heart desire of our Savior. I think if we could clearly describe the underlying doctrine that is the foundation of our differing codes of conduct, and agree first on that, and spend enough time together to allow true Christian love to blossom, then we could possibly do much better at showing respect for our differing APPLICATIONS of those shared DOCTRINES.
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Hats Off
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Hats Off »

CADude wrote:
Neto wrote:If the 'brotherhood', or the 'denomination', etc. takes over the place of the work of the Holy Spirit revealing truth in and through Scripture, then we are in deep water.
Aren't most anabaptist groups in the deep water you're talking about? I thought most are teaching about certain things being sin using scriptures such as "be ye not conformed to this world" or "come out and be ye separate".
And if it isn't those scriptures that are quoted it is "Obey them that have the rule over you." We have been told by one of our leaders that we are to listen to them as employees obey the employer, as children need to listen to their teachers and parents.
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Sudsy
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Yes, Menno did say we can as individuals know what scripture means. However, as Neto pointed out these individual understandings were to be filtered through the 'brotherhood' to arrive at a consensus on what was the correct interpretation. And, from what I can see, many times there was not this consensus and splits occurred. We have more types of Mennonites in our area where I live than any other major group of Christians. So, as right it may seem to go through a second phase of discernment, through a brotherhood, I don't see where this developed into one pure set of beliefs and practises. It only solidified the beliefs within a local brotherhood. Perhaps someone can explain this to me better if I'm mis-understanding ?
Sorry, but that's not the kind of 'anabaptist' I am. I believe in submission to the truth as revealed in Scripture, so if the 'brotherhood' cannot answer the question of "Show it to me in the Scripture, and I will follow it", then I won't be inclined to submit ON THE LARGER ISSUES - doctrine, that is. On smaller issues like being willing to avoid certain activities because a brother has strong convictions about it, then YES. In other words, I submit to the brotherhood w/o any Scriptural proof on matters of conduct (applications of clear Biblical doctrine), but not on matters of doctrine itself (w/o the "show me in the Book" response).

On divisions within anabaptism: Menno's heart desire was to bring unity to the different groups of 'anabaptists' of his day. So if we would follow him in that quest, we would do well, because that is also the heart desire of our Savior. I think if we could clearly describe the underlying doctrine that is the foundation of our differing codes of conduct, and agree first on that, and spend enough time together to allow true Christian love to blossom, then we could possibly do much better at showing respect for our differing APPLICATIONS of those shared DOCTRINES.
Thanks Neto. Question - are things like 'no women in pastoral roles' or 'acceptance of sexually active gays as Christians' doctrines ?
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Hats Off
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Hats Off »

I am not sure what constitutes doctrine - and I will not speak on the topic of women serving in a pastorate. However on the issue of sexually active gays, we do have what I would consider very plain Bible teaching in the Gospels, in the writings of Paul to the Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Thessalonians, as well as in the book of Jude. These are teachings that most Anabaptist groups agree on - that they are not among those things that can be left to personal preference. When Jesus was discussing His teaching on divorce in Mark 10, he gave no indication of any state other than male and female joining as one flesh. Men with men or women with women was not so much as considered here.
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Neto
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote:
Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Yes, Menno did say we can as individuals know what scripture means. However, as Neto pointed out these individual understandings were to be filtered through the 'brotherhood' to arrive at a consensus on what was the correct interpretation. And, from what I can see, many times there was not this consensus and splits occurred. We have more types of Mennonites in our area where I live than any other major group of Christians. So, as right it may seem to go through a second phase of discernment, through a brotherhood, I don't see where this developed into one pure set of beliefs and practises. It only solidified the beliefs within a local brotherhood. Perhaps someone can explain this to me better if I'm mis-understanding ?
Sorry, but that's not the kind of 'anabaptist' I am. I believe in submission to the truth as revealed in Scripture, so if the 'brotherhood' cannot answer the question of "Show it to me in the Scripture, and I will follow it", then I won't be inclined to submit ON THE LARGER ISSUES - doctrine, that is. On smaller issues like being willing to avoid certain activities because a brother has strong convictions about it, then YES. In other words, I submit to the brotherhood w/o any Scriptural proof on matters of conduct (applications of clear Biblical doctrine), but not on matters of doctrine itself (w/o the "show me in the Book" response).

On divisions within anabaptism: Menno's heart desire was to bring unity to the different groups of 'anabaptists' of his day. So if we would follow him in that quest, we would do well, because that is also the heart desire of our Savior. I think if we could clearly describe the underlying doctrine that is the foundation of our differing codes of conduct, and agree first on that, and spend enough time together to allow true Christian love to blossom, then we could possibly do much better at showing respect for our differing APPLICATIONS of those shared DOCTRINES.
Thanks Neto. Question - are things like 'no women in pastoral roles' or 'acceptance of sexually active gays as Christians' doctrines ?
If someone can show me from the Scriptures something different than my current understanding about these questions, yes, doctrinal questions, then my whole way of life & belief demands that I change.
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Neto
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Neto »

Hats Off wrote:
CADude wrote:
Neto wrote:If the 'brotherhood', or the 'denomination', etc. takes over the place of the work of the Holy Spirit revealing truth in and through Scripture, then we are in deep water.
Aren't most anabaptist groups in the deep water you're talking about? I thought most are teaching about certain things being sin using scriptures such as "be ye not conformed to this world" or "come out and be ye separate".
And if it isn't those scriptures that are quoted it is "Obey them that have the rule over you." We have been told by one of our leaders that we are to listen to them as employees obey the employer, as children need to listen to their teachers and parents.
I am not questioning at all that you (and others) face this sort of thing, but this is not anabaptism. The testimony of those quoted in Martyrs' Mirror is clear - they repeatedly stated that they were NOT followers of Menno, etc, only of Christ, through revelations of the Scriptures. Leaders can be shepherds, or abusers.
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Wade
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Wade »

Soloist wrote:
Wade wrote:Generalizations are okay but do not always fit. Most modern Mennonites don't seem to be Anabaptist's, but some are.

I just seen a headcovering, cape dress wearing Independent Baptist. ;)
I've wanted to find a baptist church that head covers and is non-resistant... but those seem to be hard to locate but I know they exist.
Nor have we found one. But this church does seem to be okay with head covering, and non-resistant members...?

And Sudsy, I don't think cape dresses are a marker of Anabaptist's, but humility I believe is one.


The town I grew up in had a Catholic church and and I think a Lutheran and that is it? So CADude where does this leave my home town or the rest of most of the world - with no choice of anything Mennonite of any flavor to:
CADude wrote:Today it would seem that adhering to a specific denominations teachings is adhering to their interpretation of scripture
?
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Valerie
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Valerie »

CADude wrote:Under the beliefs the early Anabaptists promoted, is it necessary that the Church interpret scripture for you? Can a person go to the Scripture, read it for himself, and reach many (or all) of the same conclusions that the early Anabaptist believers reached? It would be my understanding that Menno Simons, having come out of the Catholic church, argued against the ideas that one shouldn't read the scriptures for himself and try to understand (interpret) them. Today it would seem that adhering to a specific denominations teachings is adhering to their interpretation of scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of my points here.
Do you believe there was ever a time in Church history, that the interpretations were already in place? Or are you of the opinion that from the very beginning, there was a lot of confusion over what Jesus & the Apostles taught?
Many people bring up 'divisions' as seen in the New Testament as if there were disagreements about interpretation-
Have you concluded that these divisions were because of interpretation? Most of the divisions I notice were not because of disagreements on Apostolic doctrine & the interpretations of them-

How does one interpret this?

1 Timothy 3:15:

14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Or Acts 2:42:
King James Version
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Most of my Anabaptist friends are or were Amish- some left because they felt the 'interpretations' of the elders was incorrect- for example, they showed me how they used certain passages to conclude things like 'owning a car' were wrong-
Or having electricity- or many other things that other Anabaptists don't get from interpreting Scripture that way.

We seem to make the Holy Spirit who guides into truth, seem like He has a variety of truths regarding interpretation and THIS alone has made the Church appear we really don't have a Holy Spirit- by those outside, trying to judge all this-
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Josh
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote:Generalizations are okay but do not always fit. Most modern Mennonites don't seem to be Anabaptist's, but some are.

I just seen a headcovering, cape dress wearing Independent Baptist. ;)
What does a cape dress have to do with being Anabaptist?
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Adam
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Adam »

I really like what Finny Kuruvilla says about the importance of the Testimony of the Persecuted Cloud of Witnesses in biblical interpretation. I have summarized his teaching below:

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The true teaching of the church is found across time, across persons, across distance, with holiness, and with adversity. This principle weighs the consensus biblical interpretation of the “cloud of witnesses.” Hebrews 11 portrays how we can learn from those who have gone before us, especially those who were mistreated, persecuted, and shunned by the world. The Scriptures promise that the godly will suffer persecution. The godly, being endowed with the Holy Spirit, will naturally be able to interpret the Scriptures best. Such groups through history include the ante-Nicene church, the Waldensians, the Lollards, and the Anabaptists (among others). In contrast, the Roman Catholic Church and many of the Protestant churches that have allied themselves to the state have been persecuting churches at many points in their history. The persecuted churches are typically those that hold the clarity of Scripture most dearly: they tend to take the Bible at face value and never allow clear teachings to be accommodated to culture or prevalent expectations.
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I really like the breadth of this approach because it keeps us from being overly influenced by a particular church, brotherhood, culture, or point in history. It also keeps us from following our own idiosyncratic, personal interpretations.
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