Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
CADude
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by CADude »

Wade wrote: The town I grew up in had a Catholic church and and I think a Lutheran and that is it? So CADude where does this leave my home town or the rest of most of the world - with no choice of anything Mennonite of any flavor to:
CADude wrote:Today it would seem that adhering to a specific denominations teachings is adhering to their interpretation of scripture
?
Really good question and I have limited answers. Let me just say this, I believe that God is able to use some very faulty means at times to propagate the Gospel. But I don't mean to whitewash truth or reality when I say that. In truth I often feel that much of so-called Christianity teaches a gospel that doesn't actually bring people to the true faith, and that's a scary thought.

Wade, do you have any thought on this question you asked?
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Hats Off
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Hats Off »

Neto wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
CADude wrote:
Aren't most anabaptist groups in the deep water you're talking about? I thought most are teaching about certain things being sin using scriptures such as "be ye not conformed to this world" or "come out and be ye separate".
And if it isn't those scriptures that are quoted it is "Obey them that have the rule over you." We have been told by one of our leaders that we are to listen to them as employees obey the employer, as children need to listen to their teachers and parents.
I am not questioning at all that you (and others) face this sort of thing, but this is not anabaptism. The testimony of those quoted in Martyrs' Mirror is clear - they repeatedly stated that they were NOT followers of Menno, etc, only of Christ, through revelations of the Scriptures. Leaders can be shepherds, or abusers.
Some things can be sin that are not sin of themselves. Our church has standards which to a large extend are encouraged and agreed upon by the people. If we wilfully disregard those standards because we don't see the value in them, it can still be sin because we agreed to be in unity with the brotherhood, so it can be the sin of disobedience, like Achan's sin.

Here I certainly agree with Neto; non essentials should not keep us from fellowship as we should be able to submit in those areas. That is gelassenheit, and in the spirit of Anabaptism. We need to respect those ordained to positions of leadership; if the person for whatever reason seems to us to have become unworthy to serve in the office, we still need to respect the office. But to have the leadership infer that they alone can make the right decisions, that they know what is best is wrong and goes against the Biblical and Anabaptist principles. Abusive leaders are stepping into the Catholic mould of leadership or becoming more like the Pharisees.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Yes, Menno did say we can as individuals know what scripture means. However, as Neto pointed out these individual understandings were to be filtered through the 'brotherhood' to arrive at a consensus on what was the correct interpretation. And, from what I can see, many times there was not this consensus and splits occurred. We have more types of Mennonites in our area where I live than any other major group of Christians. So, as right it may seem to go through a second phase of discernment, through a brotherhood, I don't see where this developed into one pure set of beliefs and practises. It only solidified the beliefs within a local brotherhood. Perhaps someone can explain this to me better if I'm mis-understanding ?
Sorry, but that's not the kind of 'anabaptist' I am. I believe in submission to the truth as revealed in Scripture, so if the 'brotherhood' cannot answer the question of "Show it to me in the Scripture, and I will follow it", then I won't be inclined to submit ON THE LARGER ISSUES - doctrine, that is.
If you have to stand apart from the brotherhood, submitting to your personal understanding of scripture instead of complying with the understanding of the brotherhood, then why are you a member of that brotherhood?
On divisions within anabaptism: Menno's heart desire was to bring unity to the different groups of 'anabaptists' of his day. So if we would follow him in that quest, we would do well, because that is also the heart desire of our Savior. I think if we could clearly describe the underlying doctrine that is the foundation of our differing codes of conduct, and agree first on that, and spend enough time together to allow true Christian love to blossom, then we could possibly do much better at showing respect for our differing APPLICATIONS of those shared DOCTRINES.
Good luck on that one!
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Sudsy
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Sudsy »

Brotherhood, to me, and I believe is the same in our church, is agreeing to a written statement of faith and fellowshipping around that with other areas treated in a Romans 14 way, yet not enforced. However, brotherhood in The Church that Jesus is building would even accommodate certain differing statements of faith involving things like eternal security. I still consider and find fellowship outside the local church in The Church like what I experience here but even more richer.
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Wade
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:Generalizations are okay but do not always fit. Most modern Mennonites don't seem to be Anabaptist's, but some are.

I just seen a headcovering, cape dress wearing Independent Baptist. ;)
What does a cape dress have to do with being Anabaptist?
Directly, nothing. Not sure why you would think that?

Maybe you missed the point?
The Baptist denomination of the church we attend doesn't head cover so the generalization that none headcovering doesn't fit because one of them does.
Last edited by Wade on Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wade
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Wade »

CADude wrote:
Wade wrote: The town I grew up in had a Catholic church and and I think a Lutheran and that is it? So CADude where does this leave my home town or the rest of most of the world - with no choice of anything Mennonite of any flavor to:
CADude wrote:Today it would seem that adhering to a specific denominations teachings is adhering to their interpretation of scripture
?
Really good question and I have limited answers. Let me just say this, I believe that God is able to use some very faulty means at times to propagate the Gospel. But I don't mean to whitewash truth or reality when I say that. In truth I often feel that much of so-called Christianity teaches a gospel that doesn't actually bring people to the true faith, and that's a scary thought.

Wade, do you have any thought on this question you asked?
I guess since I grew up so ignorant to labeling others and assuming I understood who someone was by those stereotypes, I am saddened when I see so much stereotyping and jumping to conclusions within Christianity.
After all Jesus was a Jew and so we could automatically stereotype him into something he wasn't.
I would like to think there are people all over the world that are devoted to following Christ and share the same Spirit as Anabaptists but yet weren't physically born into or around it. They are bearing their cross in being as faithful as they can and God gives grace, but yet it is a struggle for them as they have false teaching all around them and the church they attend. They could use discipleship but never recieved the 20+ years that Mennonites grow up with, so they need much help but because of stereotypes and jumping to conclusions(by both sides) the whole body of Christ suffers.
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CADude
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by CADude »

Wade wrote: I would like to think there are people all over the world that are devoted to following Christ and share the same Spirit as Anabaptists but yet weren't physically born into or around it. They are bearing their cross in being as faithful as they can and God gives grace, but yet it is a struggle for them as they have false teaching all around them and the church they attend. They could use discipleship but never recieved the 20+ years that Mennonites grow up with, so they need much help but because of stereotypes and jumping to conclusions(by both sides) the whole body of Christ suffers.
The true Christian is not (or shouldn't be) out to judge or to tear down anything that God might be doing but rather to persuade and reveal the true nature of Christ by his example. To put it another way, we're called to love, to care, to build up, and to be windows through which the light of Christ might shine. It is the tendency of humankind to separate based on differences, and to become judgmental, which often shows up in very small, subtle ways.

There are surely those in every denomination who are sincere and endevouring to serve God the best they know how. It is not my place to judge them. But we must be clear on one thing, that sincerity alone is not Godliness. Take the Muslims for example. I believe many of them are very sincere, if horribly mistaken. I like to think that the true nature of the real seeker, the person that really wants to know God is of such that in humility and in desiring to know truth, he might be brought out of his false teachings and more thoroughly into the light of God's Word. Unfortunately, it seems to me that many denominations today deliver an anesthesia along with their false teachings, this anesthesia keeping people from really seeking the truth until they find it. For example, to dissuade people from personal Bible study is certainly a terrible anesthesia, isn't it?
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Wade
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Wade »

CADude wrote:
Wade wrote: I would like to think there are people all over the world that are devoted to following Christ and share the same Spirit as Anabaptists but yet weren't physically born into or around it. They are bearing their cross in being as faithful as they can and God gives grace, but yet it is a struggle for them as they have false teaching all around them and the church they attend. They could use discipleship but never recieved the 20+ years that Mennonites grow up with, so they need much help but because of stereotypes and jumping to conclusions(by both sides) the whole body of Christ suffers.
The true Christian is not (or shouldn't be) out to judge or to tear down anything that God might be doing but rather to persuade and reveal the true nature of Christ by his example. To put it another way, we're called to love, to care, to build up, and to be windows through which the light of Christ might shine. It is the tendency of humankind to separate based on differences, and to become judgmental, which often shows up in very small, subtle ways.

There are surely those in every denomination who are sincere and endevouring to serve God the best they know how. It is not my place to judge them. But we must be clear on one thing, that sincerity alone is not Godliness. Take the Muslims for example. I believe many of them are very sincere, if horribly mistaken. I like to think that the true nature of the real seeker, the person that really wants to know God is of such that in humility and in desiring to know truth, he might be brought out of his false teachings and more thoroughly into the light of God's Word. Unfortunately, it seems to me that many denominations today deliver an anesthesia along with their false teachings, this anesthesia keeping people from really seeking the truth until they find it. For example, to dissuade people from personal Bible study is certainly a terrible anesthesia, isn't it?
I very much agree with this.

What troubles me greatly is how much I hear about multiple same denomination churches in one area so one can just choose one that fits. I believe with so many choices some very good things have come out of places like PA and Ontario but something seems terribly unbiblical when one area contains multiple choices of finding brotherhood while the next has none... Is this too what can promote such focus on those little differences rather than a deeper focus on His Word?
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Ernie
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Ernie »

Wade wrote: What troubles me greatly is how much I hear about multiple same denomination churches in one area so one can just choose one that fits. I believe with so many choices some very good things have come out of places like PA and Ontario but something seems terribly unbiblical when one area contains multiple choices of finding brotherhood while the next has none... Is this too what can promote such focus on those little differences rather than a deeper focus on His Word?
How is this unbiblical? I agree it is sad.


My observation is that many of the options that you refer to or not very good options anyhow. They are much like the church you parted ways with. That is why there are so many. Everybody is trying to produce a good one, but without a better model, few are able to do better than the church they came from.

Until a church is really loving and considerate of people outside their ethnic group, I consider the church dysfunctional and not a good church.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Neto
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Neto »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Yes, Menno did say we can as individuals know what scripture means. However, as Neto pointed out these individual understandings were to be filtered through the 'brotherhood' to arrive at a consensus on what was the correct interpretation. And, from what I can see, many times there was not this consensus and splits occurred. We have more types of Mennonites in our area where I live than any other major group of Christians. So, as right it may seem to go through a second phase of discernment, through a brotherhood, I don't see where this developed into one pure set of beliefs and practises. It only solidified the beliefs within a local brotherhood. Perhaps someone can explain this to me better if I'm mis-understanding ?
Sorry, but that's not the kind of 'anabaptist' I am. I believe in submission to the truth as revealed in Scripture, so if the 'brotherhood' cannot answer the question of "Show it to me in the Scripture, and I will follow it", then I won't be inclined to submit ON THE LARGER ISSUES - doctrine, that is.
If you have to stand apart from the brotherhood, submitting to your personal understanding of scripture instead of complying with the understanding of the brotherhood, then why are you a member of that brotherhood?
....
I will submit (in doctrine) when I am shown to be wrong from the Scriptures. In matters of application, I will submit even where I do not agree, for the sake of brotherhood. So the part about "instead of complying with the understanding of the brotherhood"; if it is referring to complying in matters of conduct, is inaccurate. I submit in areas of doctrine in that I am willing to be corrected. I do not see how any serious Christian can go beyond that.
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