Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
CADude
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Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by CADude »

Under the beliefs the early Anabaptists promoted, is it necessary that the Church interpret scripture for you? Can a person go to the Scripture, read it for himself, and reach many (or all) of the same conclusions that the early Anabaptist believers reached? It would be my understanding that Menno Simons, having come out of the Catholic church, argued against the ideas that one shouldn't read the scriptures for himself and try to understand (interpret) them. Today it would seem that adhering to a specific denominations teachings is adhering to their interpretation of scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of my points here.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Wayne in Maine »

CADude wrote:Under the beliefs the early Anabaptists promoted, is it necessary that the Church interpret scripture for you? Can a person go to the Scripture, read it for himself, and reach many (or all) of the same conclusions that the early Anabaptist believers reached?
That's an interesting question. For myself personally I am an Anabaptists because, having read the scriptures, I came to
many of the same conclusions about the message and mission of Jesus as did the early Anabaptists. The presumed norm for an Anabaptist congregation is that the brotherhood interprets scripture corporately and comes to a consensus (or ideally - unanimity) on its meaning.
It would be my understanding that Menno Simons, having come out of the Catholic church, argued against the ideas that one shouldn't read the scriptures for himself and try to understand (interpret) them.
Could you cite where specifically you get that impression from Simons?
Today it would seem that adhering to a specific denominations teachings is adhering to their interpretation of scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of my points here.
I think you are correct. But one either has to have been socialized into holding the same interpretation of scripture as your denomination (as is the case with most people raised in their family's denomination) or one has to choose a church whose interpretation most closely fits one's own (which is usually the case for outsiders joining). I joined the Bruderhof (when they were still Hutterites) because I came to much the same conclusions about the teachings of Jesus and His apostles as they did (or as they seemed to).
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CADude
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by CADude »

Wayne in Maine wrote: Could you cite where specifically you get that impression from Simons?
"Dear reader, I admonish and advise you, if you seek
God with all your heart and would not be deceived, do not
depend upon men and the doctrine of men, however old,
holy and excellent it may be esteemed, for one theologian
is against the other, both in ancient and modern times; but
build upon Christ and His Word alone, upon the sure
teaching and practice of His holy apostles, and you will
through the grace of God be kept safe from all false doc-
trine and from the power of the devil, and walk before
your God with a confident and pious mind. (I :37).
This holy Christian church has only one doctrine-
the pure, unmixed and unadulterated Word of God, the
Gospel of grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. All teachings
and decrees that do not accord with the doctrine of Christ,
be they the teachings and opinions of doctors, decrees of
popes, ecumenical councils, or anything else, are but
teachings and commandments of men (Matt. 19:5), doc-
trines of devils (I Tim. 4: 1) and therefore accursed (Gal.
7 :8). We write and teach nothing but the pure, heavenly
Word and the perfect commandments of Jesus Christ and
His apostles. (II:193b)."



"Therefore I deem it essential and well, sincerely to warn
and admonish all beloved readers in the
Lord, not to accept my doctrine as the gospel
of Jesus Christ until they have weighed
it in the balance with the Spirit and word
of God, that they may not place their faith
in me, nor in any teacher or writer, but,
solely in Christ Jesus. For if they should
accept it for my sake, and should not first
compare it with the word of the Lord, and
should, thus depend upon me or any other
man, and not upon Christ Jesus, they would
be like unto the culpable Corinthians, whom
Paul severely reproved because there were
dissensions among them; some were of
Paul, some of Apollos, and not all of Christ
Jesus, 1 Cor. 1. They would be like unto
those of whom it is written, "Cursed be the
man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh
his arm, and whose heart departeth from
the Lord," Jer. 17: 5."



"I can neither teach nor live by the faith of others. I must live by my own faith as the Spirit of the Lord has taught me through His Word."


Sorry I don't have page numbers for these quotes and also the formatting is a bit bad. Page numbers or a messy thing when dealing with Menno Simons writings. There's quite a few different publications of his writings and some of them are even different translations so wording can be slightly different. There's a Kindle version available for $1.99 and I think that is an 1871 version. There is a searchable 1871 edition available for free online at https://archive.org/details/completeworksofm00menn
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Neto
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Neto »

CADude wrote:Under the beliefs the early Anabaptists promoted, is it necessary that the Church interpret scripture for you? Can a person go to the Scripture, read it for himself, and reach many (or all) of the same conclusions that the early Anabaptist believers reached? It would be my understanding that Menno Simons, having come out of the Catholic church, argued against the ideas that one shouldn't read the scriptures for himself and try to understand (interpret) them. Today it would seem that adhering to a specific denominations teachings is adhering to their interpretation of scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of my points here.
If anabaptists are really Biblicist, then, yes, anyone should be able to go to the Scriptures and, if honestly seeking, find the same truths. This attitude toward truth and the Scriptures is all through the Martyrs' Mirror as well. But specifically, it is an attitude that says "Show me in the Scripture and I will believe & follow it." That, to me, is where the brotherhood comes into the picture. It is a family of faith who agree together to be corrected by one another when shown the truth in the Scripture. If the 'brotherhood', or the 'denomination', etc. takes over the place of the work of the Holy Spirit revealing truth in and through Scripture, then we are in deep water.
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Sudsy
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Sudsy »

CADude wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: Could you cite where specifically you get that impression from Simons?
"Dear reader, I admonish and advise you, if you seek
God with all your heart and would not be deceived, do not
depend upon men and the doctrine of men, however old,
holy and excellent it may be esteemed, for one theologian
is against the other, both in ancient and modern times; but
build upon Christ and His Word alone, upon the sure
teaching and practice of His holy apostles, and you will
through the grace of God be kept safe from all false doc-
trine and from the power of the devil, and walk before
your God with a confident and pious mind. (I :37).
This holy Christian church has only one doctrine-
the pure, unmixed and unadulterated Word of God, the
Gospel of grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. All teachings
and decrees that do not accord with the doctrine of Christ,
be they the teachings and opinions of doctors, decrees of
popes, ecumenical councils, or anything else, are but
teachings and commandments of men (Matt. 19:5), doc-
trines of devils (I Tim. 4: 1) and therefore accursed (Gal.
7 :8). We write and teach nothing but the pure, heavenly
Word and the perfect commandments of Jesus Christ and
His apostles. (II:193b)."



"Therefore I deem it essential and well, sincerely to warn
and admonish all beloved readers in the
Lord, not to accept my doctrine as the gospel
of Jesus Christ until they have weighed
it in the balance with the Spirit and word
of God, that they may not place their faith
in me, nor in any teacher or writer, but,
solely in Christ Jesus. For if they should
accept it for my sake, and should not first
compare it with the word of the Lord, and
should, thus depend upon me or any other
man, and not upon Christ Jesus, they would
be like unto the culpable Corinthians, whom
Paul severely reproved because there were
dissensions among them; some were of
Paul, some of Apollos, and not all of Christ
Jesus, 1 Cor. 1. They would be like unto
those of whom it is written, "Cursed be the
man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh
his arm, and whose heart departeth from
the Lord," Jer. 17: 5."



"I can neither teach nor live by the faith of others. I must live by my own faith as the Spirit of the Lord has taught me through His Word."


Sorry I don't have page numbers for these quotes and also the formatting is a bit bad. Page numbers or a messy thing when dealing with Menno Simons writings. There's quite a few different publications of his writings and some of them are even different translations so wording can be slightly different. There's a Kindle version available for $1.99 and I think that is an 1871 version. There is a searchable 1871 edition available for free online at https://archive.org/details/completeworksofm00menn
Yes, Menno did say we can as individuals know what scripture means. However, as Neto pointed out these individual understandings were to be filtered through the 'brotherhood' to arrive at a consensus on what was the correct interpretation. And, from what I can see, many times there was not this consensus and splits occurred. We have more types of Mennonites in our area where I live than any other major group of Christians. So, as right it may seem to go through a second phase of discernment, through a brotherhood, I don't see where this developed into one pure set of beliefs and practises. It only solidified the beliefs within a local brotherhood. Perhaps someone can explain this to me better if I'm mis-understanding ?
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CADude
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Location: Southeast PA
Affiliation: Consrvt. Anabaptist

Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by CADude »

Neto wrote:If the 'brotherhood', or the 'denomination', etc. takes over the place of the work of the Holy Spirit revealing truth in and through Scripture, then we are in deep water.
Aren't most anabaptist groups in the deep water you're talking about? I thought most are teaching about certain things being sin using scriptures such as "be ye not conformed to this world" or "come out and be ye separate".
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CADude
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Location: Southeast PA
Affiliation: Consrvt. Anabaptist

Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by CADude »

Sudsy wrote: Yes, Menno did say we can as individuals know what scripture means. However, as Neto pointed out these individual understandings were to be filtered through the 'brotherhood' to arrive at a consensus on what was the correct interpretation. And, from what I can see, many times there was not this consensus and splits occurred. We have more types of Mennonites in our area where I live than any other major group of Christians. So, as right it may seem to go through a second phase of discernment, through a brotherhood, I don't see where this developed into one pure set of beliefs and practises. It only solidified the beliefs within a local brotherhood. Perhaps someone can explain this to me better if I'm mis-understanding ?
Have Mennonites really been dividing over major "essential" doctrinal issues? In my opinion, most splits are probably over things that would technically be covered by Paul's admonishment in the first half of Romans 14. Non-essentials, or to put it another way, matters of conscience. Even worse yet are the splits that happen not over doctrinal disagreements or matters of conscience, but because people do not get along (even though they usually cite a few issues).

It seems that both Jesus and Paul saw this tendency to split and divide. In the NT there's quite a bit written about division and a lot written about brotherly love. We find Jesus praying in St John 17 "that they may be one". The first half of Romans 14 provides a beautiful model of how to resolve differences that are simply a matter of conscience (non-essentials).

Speaking of Romans 14, I have an opinion (and let's be clear that it's just an opinion). I believe that many "liberal" churches struggling with carnality live by the first part of Romans 14. They want everyone to just accept broad differences of opinion and conscience, and have no desire or willingness to practice any constraint or any part of the latter half of Romans 14 (concerning not being an offense to a weaker brother). On the other hand, many conservative churches today do not even preach on the first half of Romans 14, but focus heavily on "unity" and the latter half (not offending your brother). They drift into legalism and law-mindedness because they will not allow forbearance of differences in matters of conscience. I believe either approach is unscriptural and causes (or is the result of) some kind of decay that comes about by not sticking close enough to the scriptures.
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Wade
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Wade »

Generalizations are okay but do not always fit. Most modern Mennonites don't seem to be Anabaptist's, but some are.

I just seen a headcovering, cape dress wearing Independent Baptist. ;)
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Sudsy
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:Generalizations are okay but do not always fit. Most modern Mennonites don't seem to be Anabaptist's, but some are.

I just seen a headcovering, cape dress wearing Independent Baptist. ;)
When it comes to outward appearance like headcoverings and cape dresses our Mennonite Brethren church would not 'seem to be Anabaptists' ? Where is the line drawn when one is still considered Anabaptist ?
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Soloist
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Re: Church Interpretation of Scripture in Anabaptism

Post by Soloist »

Wade wrote:Generalizations are okay but do not always fit. Most modern Mennonites don't seem to be Anabaptist's, but some are.

I just seen a headcovering, cape dress wearing Independent Baptist. ;)
I've wanted to find a baptist church that head covers and is non-resistant... but those seem to be hard to locate but I know they exist.
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