Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

Post by Josh »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
lesterb wrote:I don't think Jesus had a carnal nature. I think he came as the second Adam with the same advantages and disadvantages that the first one had.
Agree 100%. This is the primary point I see in the incarnation view of Dirk (and Menno)
Right. Adam wasn’t born into sin either. The difference is, Jesus did not choose sin despite being tempted just like Adam was.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

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Wayne in Maine wrote:One problem with reading or studying the old Anabaptist writings is that there are so few of them available in English, or even in modern German.
If someone would just scan them and put them online, it would make it a lot easier for other people to translate them. I have often had difficulty finding the originals. And a directory of what can be found online would be extremely helpful.
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Neto
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

Post by Neto »

I looked a bit on-line, but articles I saw are all written from one theological viewpoint or another - their take on what "sin nature", "original sin", "fallen nature", etc means to them. The starting point has to be Scripture, in order for me to know what any of you mean by these terms. What I know is what the Scripture tells me - that the Christ, Jesus, was tempted in every way as any other human being, and did not sin. I don't think this is a "lesson by example" - that we can beat sin because Jesus proved it can be beaten. Rather, it shows clearly that Jesus was sinless, and so he has the power over sin, and can save each of us. I just think it's all the wrong questions.
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Neto
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

Post by Neto »

Bootstrap wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:One problem with reading or studying the old Anabaptist writings is that there are so few of them available in English, or even in modern German.
If someone would just scan them and put them online, it would make it a lot easier for other people to translate them. I have often had difficulty finding the originals. And a directory of what can be found online would be extremely helpful.
This?
https://archive.org/details/ned-kbn-all-00013994-001

(I don't know, as I do not read Dutch.)
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

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Cornelius Hendrickz Hoen. Anyone know of any translation of his writings? His view of "Holy Communion" was rejected by Luther as too symbolic (no physical presence of Christ in the elements), but was of interest to Zwingli. He was Dutch, and died in 1524. (Early Dutch Anabaptist?)

http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Hoen,_ ... ._1523/24)
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

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Neto wrote:Cornelius Hendrickz Hoen. Anyone know of any translation of his writings? His view of "Holy Communion" was rejected by Luther as too symbolic (no physical presence of Christ in the elements), but was of interest to Zwingli. He was Dutch, and died in 1524. (Early Dutch Anabaptist?)

http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Hoen,_ ... ._1523/24)
Interesting how this whole period became a time of following different people's personal views about everything- so in this case, Zwingli would be seen with favor?
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

Post by Valerie »

lesterb wrote:
Josh wrote:
Soloist wrote:
Well, for starters I'm not a Mennonite but his view of celestial flesh seems to be based on a misunderstanding of biology really... as for Dirk, I'm not aware of his stance on it.

I view that if Christ had divine flesh, how are we to follow like Christ? So its a little bit of a theological argument and really doesn't matter if you still strive to follow after Christ. Thats just my take on it but I feel its not important enough to die for.
Both Simons’ view and the traditional Catholic view are based on a misunderstanding of biology; essentially, Simons’ view was Jesus had no human DNA and the Catholic view was he had only Mary’s DNA.

The latter is an absurd view based on modern science, and more importantly, the scriptures never discuss what Jesus’ genetic lineage might be. It’s not relevant to the kingdom.
It appears that Luke gives Mary's genealogy in his gospel. So why wouldn't Jesus have Mary's DNA? The genealogical listing in Matthew give his legal status, and Luke gives His bloodline, or his natural status. Both end up at David, but they take two different trails to get there.

If Mary was his biological mother, how do you keep him from having Mary's DNA?
Jesus really perplexed the question, with another question:

Whose Son Is the Christ?
41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?
45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.

Really, this is all a mystery, isn't it? I mean we try to explain things of God scientifically, biologically- and I don't think we were meant to do that.
But of course Mary was Jesus biological mother, otherwise she could not have nursed Him- she wasn't just an 'empty vessel' and I think trying to solve all this one can stumble into heretical assumptions- the way He took on human flesh, had to be from Mary- there was no human father involved, Joseph was not his blood/seed donor-
Too try to explain this scientifically is just weird to me.
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Neto
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

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Valerie wrote:
Neto wrote:Cornelius Hendrickz Hoen. Anyone know of any translation of his writings? His view of "Holy Communion" was rejected by Luther as too symbolic (no physical presence of Christ in the elements), but was of interest to Zwingli. He was Dutch, and died in 1524. (Early Dutch Anabaptist?)

http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Hoen,_ ... ._1523/24)
Interesting how this whole period became a time of following different people's personal views about everything- so in this case, Zwingli would be seen with favor?
I wasn't looking at it that way, actually. Just that at that point in his life, Zwingli was still uncertain regarding this doctrine (according to what I read), and the men considered the "beginning" of the "anabaptist movement" were still his students, or in his circle of influence. It may be that his understanding of the nature of the presence of Christ in the "communion elements" was influenced by Hoen's view, and that his considerations on the matter may have in turn influenced the Swiss anabaptists. (I mentioned this in respect to the possibility of at least some early Dutch influence on the formation of the anabaptist beliefs, through interaction with Zwingli during this early period.)

I found the following comments, probably from a Calvinist point of view (at https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc7.ii.vii.xi.html):
II. The Zwinglian Theory.—The Lord’s Supper is a solemn commemoration of the atoning death of Christ, according to his own command: "Do this in remembrance of me," and the words of Paul: "As often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord’s death till he come."928 Zwingli emphasized this primitive character of the institution as a gift of God to man, in opposition to the Roman mass as a work or offering which man makes to God.929 He compares the sacrament to a wedding-ring which seals the marriage union between Christ and the believer. He denied the corporal presence, because Christ ascended to heaven, and because a body cannot be present in more than one place at once, also because two substances cannot occupy the same space at the same time; but he admitted his spiritual presence, for Christ is eternal God, and his death is forever fruitful and efficacious.930 He denied the corporal eating as Capernaitic and useless, but he admitted a spiritual participation in the crucified body and blood by faith. Christ is both "host and feast" in the holy communion.
His last word on the subject of the eucharist (in the Confession to King Francis I.) is this: —

"We believe that Christ is truly present in the Lord’s Supper; yea, that there is no communion without such presence .... We believe that the true body of Christ is eaten in the communion, not in a gross and carnal manner, but in a sacramental and spiritual manner by the religious, believing and pious heart."931

This passage comes so near the Calvinistic view that it can hardly be distinguished from it. Calvin did injustice to Zwingli, when once in a confidential letter he called his earlier eucharistic doctrine, profane."932 But Zwingli in his polemic writings laid so much stress upon the absence of Christ’s body, that the positive truth of His spiritual presence was not sufficiently emphasized. Undoubtedly the Lord’s Supper is a commemoration of the historic Christ of the past, but it is also a vital communion with the ever-living Christ who is both in heaven and in his church on earth.
Zwingli’s theory did not pass into any of the leading Reformed confessions; but it was adopted by the Arminians, Socinians, Unitarians, and Rationalists, and obtained for a time a wide currency in all Protestant churches, even the Lutheran. But the Rationalists deny what Zwingli strongly believed, the divinity of Christ, and thus deprive the Lord’s Supper of its deeper significance and power.
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CADude
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

Post by CADude »

Valerie wrote:
Neto wrote:Cornelius Hendrickz Hoen. Anyone know of any translation of his writings? His view of "Holy Communion" was rejected by Luther as too symbolic (no physical presence of Christ in the elements), but was of interest to Zwingli. He was Dutch, and died in 1524. (Early Dutch Anabaptist?)

http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Hoen,_ ... ._1523/24)
Interesting how this whole period became a time of following different people's personal views about everything- so in this case, Zwingli would be seen with favor?
Yes, and what's sort of odd about this is that Menno Simons didn't want anyone to follow his personal views. He continually pointed people back the Scripture and said you should go read it for yourself and see if he was correct on his views.
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Re: Reading Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, etc.

Post by CADude »

Valerie wrote: Jesus really perplexed the question, with another question...

Too try to explain this scientifically is just weird to me.
I feel a lot like you do. I just don't think this can be proven to be one way or the other. What's far more important is the conclusions you reach and how they affect your life. Some feel like they would totally lose faith in God and the salvation plan if they found out that the temptations Jesus faced were somehow a little different than the ones we face, i.e. that Jesus couldn't have possibly sinned. Personally, I don't feel like finding out such a thing would suddenly invalidate the whole scripture or make God so unfair that you can't trust Him. There are quite a few things about the scripture that create dilemmas, such as people being born without any choice in the matter and then being destined to Hell by default (basically anyway). As we wrestle with the many dilemmas and conundrums, we must keep one thing in mind, that God is ultimately all good, all knowing, and all love towards humankind and every idea or belief we entertain must be subject to this reality.
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