What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by RZehr »

steve-in-kville wrote:I am referring to those brethren in our churches who are wealthy or well-to-do (big wheels as they are often called).
Do we sub-consciously worship them?

I don't believe so.
steve-in-kville wrote:Do we equate their level of wealth to a higher level of spirituality?
I don't believe so.
steve-in-kville wrote:Do their opinions matter more than others?
I think we do often esteem their opinions highly. Assuming their testimony is a good one.
steve-in-kville wrote:To this end, what do we think of poor people? Those who struggle to make ends meet?
Depends on why they are poor and why they are struggling to make ends meet.
steve-in-kville wrote:Are they lesser of a person than anyone else? Are they second class?
I don't think so but I understand how they may feel that way if their opinions are not acted upon.

I suppose these questions are meant to be general questions. But aside from the economic aspect of these questions, lets drill down into what may be an underlying assumption, the assumption being that each person has the same wisdom, or the same expertise. This simply is not the case. When I fly, I want an expert pilot, when I go to the dentist I want to know that the dentist actually knows what he is doing. And I don't want to hire someone to fix my plumbing that simply has an opinion on how plumbing should be done. And in this country a person that is perpetually upside down financially probably isn't going to be considered an expert on financial issues. I think it is a mistake to pretend that each person in church is an expert or each person is equally gifted in all areas. We don't do dentistry by democracy.

So if there is a poor school teacher that is much more knowledgeable and experienced about music, his input might be considered more than the next persons. If the rich successful contractor has experience with remodeling then his opinion might be given more weight.

A reason that the rich are heard, could be any number of reasons.
1. Foolish people think that financial success = spiritual discernment.
2. Rich people might have more time to think through issues. Thus they are coming to the meeting with the issue well thought out in their mind. They had time to prepare. They may have had the time to discuss the issue with others. In this case the fact that they are rich works as an enabling mechanism. The poor people can also spend time thinking, but it is much more of a sacrifice and thus will stay poor if they spend lots of time just thinking.
3. Because they are asked for their opinion on a regular basis, the rich will become accustomed to giving opinions. They then have an inside view of issues and in the future are better positioned to base their opinions on their prior experiences. When someone acts on the rich persons advice, he is serving as a lab rat for the rich person. The rich person might be dispensing advice to 10 people and so is able to learn many nuances from all 10 of those instances. The poor person has no lab rats. Over time, the rich person has a much broader perspective on issues than the poor man does.
4. A unregenerate rich person might be unduly adamant in his opinion. He is used to his opinion carrying weight. Sometimes things said with volume and certitude are mistakenly taken as factual and carry the day.


However I believe that there are perspectives that are unique to the poor and the rich would do well to heed.

I think of the Princeton study that showed that money does create happiness, but only up to a certain annual income. Below that point the struggle of making a living detracted from happiness. But earning far beyond that annual income point did not cause any greater degree of happiness.
I think this is a bit how it is in the church. The person that is struggling financially may not (right or wrong) be heard as much. But in my experience the middle class are heard equal to the rich. I don't think we look at the issue in a way that "the richer you are the more you get to talk". I think it is more "As long as you have your life - including finances- in order, then you have an equal voice".
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steve-in-kville
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by steve-in-kville »

RZehr wrote:
However I believe that there are perspectives that are unique to the poor and the rich would do well to heed.
I didn't start this thread with any agenda in mind, but the above got me thinking. I think a man who successfully raised a large family on limited resources carries as much or more weight than someone who intentionally kept their family small so they could have all kinds of nice things (toys). I also do not think that someone who inherited a fortune or even second generation business owners should get as much pull as they do sometimes, for one reason: they didn't earn it. It was given to them. They never really struggled.

And there is the key word: struggle.
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Sudsy »

steve-in-kville wrote:I am referring to those brethren in our churches who are wealthy or well-to-do (big wheels as they are often called). Do we sub-consciously worship them?

Generally speaking, I don't believe that is true.

Do we equate their level of wealth to a higher level of spirituality?

Generally speaking, I don't believe that is true.

Do their opinions matter more than others ?

I believe it is true to some extent as there is a concern in some churches to keep the bigger contributors happy.

To this end, what do we think of poor people?

Depends on why they are poor. I don't have sympathy for laziness and I think the church should help and spur on capable people to work and earn a living. There are those who just won't take a job as it isn't something they like to do. I don't think the community of believers should support that attitude.

Those who struggle to make ends meet? Are they lesser of a person than anyone else? Are they second class?

No, poor people who are poor due to being unable to work and make a living should have equal voice and treatment in a congregation.

Discuss.

Jesus was especially concerned about the poor and how they were being treated. I think, in general, we need to be reaching out more to the poor and showing them in the family of God they are as appreciated as anyone else. To some extent we might have an opposite problem to what Jesus was dealing with. The government's ways to assist the poor sometimes are such that it encourages them not to work and still have food and a roof over their head at minimum. They can bounce around from one church free dinner to another and take advantage of various charitable hand outs. We should discourage iligitamate poor Christians from this if they are capable of work and work is available. But for those who are doing their best and still poor, there should be sharing from those who don't need to struggle to get them some of the blessings we have.
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RZehr
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by RZehr »

steve-in-kville wrote:
RZehr wrote:
However I believe that there are perspectives that are unique to the poor and the rich would do well to heed.
I didn't start this thread with any agenda in mind, but the above got me thinking. I think a man who successfully raised a large family on limited resources carries as much or more weight than someone who intentionally kept their family small so they could have all kinds of nice things (toys). I also do not think that someone who inherited a fortune or even second generation business owners should get as much pull as they do sometimes, for one reason: they didn't earn it. It was given to them. They never really struggled.

And there is the key word: struggle.
:up:
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

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steve-in-kville wrote:Do their opinions matter more than others ?
Sudsy wrote:I believe it is true to some extent as there is a concern in some churches to keep the bigger contributors happy.
And how do people know who the bigger contributors are? :?
If they do, something is wrong.
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

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Was Jesus wealthy or poor?
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Sudsy »

ohio jones wrote:
steve-in-kville wrote:Do their opinions matter more than others ?
Sudsy wrote:I believe it is true to some extent as there is a concern in some churches to keep the bigger contributors happy.
And how do people know who the bigger contributors are? :?
If they do, something is wrong.
In some churches it is not public knowledge but the elders, pastors and/or board know where the big cheques are coming from. I knew of one church who posted at year end what everyone gave. I have also seen the givings broken down into categories and when the top category was in the tens of thousands of dollars and the givers were few in that category, it wasn't hard to suspect who these givers are. Also, ushers in some churches see the cheques given and word gets around. Ideally, no one but the treasurer should know who gives what and perhaps this is how most Anabaptist churches control this, I don't know.
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

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The first time I got a statement from the moderator at one church was the last time I ever contributed money known.

I normally give money secretly and this time they needed help so I gave it directly to someone and I guess he told the moderator and thus I got the statement...

I personally believe its a danger to have a tax exempt status and believe that anyone giving and claiming the exemptions is on shaky ground.
This is the problem we run into as we go away from cash.
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

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Soloist wrote:I personally believe its a danger to have a tax exempt status and believe that anyone giving and claiming the exemptions is on shaky ground.
This is the problem we run into as we go away from cash.
In America, every church is tax exempt, unless you set up your church as a for profit business. I think that would be pretty dangerous.
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

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ohio jones wrote:And how do people know who the bigger contributors are? :?
If they do, something is wrong.
That has politics written all over it!!
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