What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Josh »

Indeed, perhaps the super wealthy who long to give in secret can simply stuff $100s into the collection box when no one is looking.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Sudsy »

Soloist wrote:The first time I got a statement from the moderator at one church was the last time I ever contributed money known.

I normally give money secretly and this time they needed help so I gave it directly to someone and I guess he told the moderator and thus I got the statement...

I personally believe its a danger to have a tax exempt status and believe that anyone giving and claiming the exemptions is on shaky ground.
This is the problem we run into as we go away from cash.
I'm curious what the 'shaky ground' is. I render unto Caesar what Caesar requires and if Caesar allows me to have something back, I'm glad to take it. I don't practise this as some do but I know some who take their tax break from charitable donations and give it back as additional offerings. This can be looked at as good stewardship of our monies.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
appleman2006
Posts: 2455
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:50 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Mennonite

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by appleman2006 »

lesterb wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote: The only system I am familiar with is the anonymous envelope numbering system, and I've never known of names being (formally) associated with the numbers. Definitely possible that the deacon has an idea who the larger givers are, though.
Interesting. I've never known of a church that used the system you are talking about here. I think I may have heard about it, but I've never seen it be an issue. I suppose a few people in our church just give cash, but then they don't get a receipt. We don't use envelopes at all, and most people use checks to give. (Actually, we use cheques, not checks.) Our receipts do not itemize individual amounts, but the treasurer's books do, in case of an audit. I've been a church auditor a few times, but I don't recall any particular amounts being given by a particular person. Unless a person is really riding a hobby horse, I doubt that most treasurers or auditors really remember things like that.

If you are really that concerned that no one knows what you give, then you shouldn't use your offerings as a tax write-off anyway.
I agree with Lester.

Added to that I believe if a church is audited here in Canada they actually require a double counting. One by a separate group (in our case the collectors of the offering or ushers) and then again by the treasurer. I have been an occasional collector and have also been a church internal auditor numerous times and I could not tell you at all what amount anyone else gives. I simply do not remember. Nor do I try to.
I respect the idea of someone taking the command literally of your right hand not knowing what your left is doing but I think the basic idea is that our giving should not be done to be seen of men or for any selfish reasons. It should be done simply because we care about the needs of others and also the needs of the church community including it's operating expenses. I believe systematic giving is a good idea. By that I mean if you are on a salary giving the same amount each week is a great habit to get into. If your income varies more it might work better to give a certain percentage of your income. But having a system that you stick to can be a really good thing.

As to not taking advantage of a tax refund for you charitable giving. I guess that is up to you. You obviously believe the government will make better use of that money than your church or other charitable organization which I find kind of sad because I do not believe that is even close to true. If it is in your situation I would suggest changing churches.

I expect that the time may come where our land will require certain things of a church before they can be considered a charitable organization and if that time comes and those things are in conflict with our understanding of how God wants us to live I expect we will be forced to stop giving charitable receipts. For me that will be a sad day as it will simply mean I can give less money as I will have less money to give.
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Hats Off »

appleman2006 wrote: As to not taking advantage of a tax refund for you charitable giving. I guess that is up to you. You obviously believe the government will make better use of that money than your church or other charitable organization which I find kind of sad because I do not believe that is even close to true. If it is in your situation I would suggest changing churches.
I suppose government is more responsible in the US than in Canada. Either that or Canadian churches more responsible than US. :wave:
0 x
User avatar
JimFoxvog
Posts: 2891
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:56 pm
Location: Northern Illinois
Affiliation: MCUSA

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by JimFoxvog »

appleman2006 wrote:I've been a church auditor a few times, but I don't recall any particular amounts being given by a particular person.
I wish I could say the same. I'm a church treasurer, and have to record each gift, by name of giver if not anonymous. When a certain person gave a series of teachings on the importance of giving to one's own church, with at least a tithe suggested, I noticed his family continued to contribute nothing most months. It didn't help my feelings toward this person.
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Hats Off »

As a bookkeeper and tax preparer, I know what you are talking about. We know things others don't and can't really talk about them. I am amazed at the generosity of some people since I have never been in a position to give like some can. I have never been in the position where I see the complete picture in our own church but still have a pretty good idea.
0 x
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by MaxPC »

Hats Off wrote:As a bookkeeper and tax preparer, I know what you are talking about. We know things others don't and can't really talk about them. I am amazed at the generosity of some people since I have never been in a position to give like some can. I have never been in the position where I see the complete picture in our own church but still have a pretty good idea.
Then there are the expenditures that aren't recorded. I know of a family who very quietly supported an ailing and unemployed relative. They bought him a car, paid his utilities, food bill, car insurance and fuel- no one knew anything about this until the recipient of their generosity let the cat out of the bag one day.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
appleman2006
Posts: 2455
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:50 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Mennonite

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by appleman2006 »

JimFoxvog wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:I've been a church auditor a few times, but I don't recall any particular amounts being given by a particular person.
I wish I could say the same. I'm a church treasurer, and have to record each gift, by name of giver if not anonymous. When a certain person gave a series of teachings on the importance of giving to one's own church, with at least a tithe suggested, I noticed his family continued to contribute nothing most months. It didn't help my feelings toward this person.
Have you ever talked to this brother on confidence. There may some very good reasons why he might not be able to give in the way he might like to presently. Be aware though that some of those reasons may be very private and so he may come across as very defensive. You will probably only get good answers if he knows you really really do care about him and where he is at right now. And that you really want to help him get to a better place.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Josh »

Perhaps it would be better if we, as Christians, considered that we should hold “all things in common” and expected far less privacy in financial matters.

As far as giving goes, perhaps giving should be less a personal decision and more of a joint, brotherhood decision for each brother to give a certain amount of his base income, give a certain amount of his excess income, and give away a certain amount of excess property or other assets he owns.
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Hats Off »

As a bookkeeper and tax preparer, I know what you are talking about. We know things others don't and can't really talk about them. I am amazed at the generosity of some people since I have never been in a position to give like some can. I have never been in the position where I see the complete picture in our own church but still have a pretty good idea.
0 x
Post Reply