What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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steve-in-kville
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by steve-in-kville »

Soloist wrote:I normally give money secretly and this time they needed help so I gave it directly to someone and I guess he told the moderator and thus I got the statement...
Giving directly is great, I've done it myself and it wasn't always someone in the church. Only problem there is it can snowball and get out of control. A local smallish conservative independent group (70-ish members) were having "deacon problems." Folks didn't think the deacon was helping the widows enough so instead of putting their 10% or whatever in the offering basket, they were giving directly to those in need. Sunday offerings went from $500 - $600/week to not even $100 in a matter of months. Before long, there wasn't enough money to cover other bills the church had!

Needless to say, that guy didn't stay deacon for very long after that...
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Biblical Anabaptist
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

Sudsy wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
steve-in-kville wrote:Do their opinions matter more than others ?
And how do people know who the bigger contributors are? :?
If they do, something is wrong.
In some churches, it is not public knowledge but the elders, pastors and/or board know where the big cheques are coming from. I knew of one church who posted at year end what everyone gave. I have also seen the givings broken down into categories and when the top category was in the tens of thousands of dollars and the givers were few in that category, it wasn't hard to suspect who these givers are. Also, ushers in some churches see the cheques given and word gets around. Ideally, no one but the treasurer should know who gives what and perhaps this is how most Anabaptist churches control this, I don't know.
It is my understanding with the envelope system nobody needs to know how much anyone is giving. The envelopes are numbered. Each individual gets enough envelopes at the beginning of the year to last the year. All of his envelopes have the same number. The amount enclosed whether it be cash or a check is written on the outside. This makes it possible for whoever is counting the offering to add up the total. The bank, I am told, will take the money from the envelops and return them to whoever is making the deposit. The treasurer keeps the envelopes to return to the individuals at the end of the year along with a statement of the total for that individual if they want to use their donations as a tax write-off. Only the donor knows their number and picks up their envelopes and statement from a table or wherever they are placed at the end of the year. In this way, nobody but the donor knows how much anyone is giving.
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YorkandAdams
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by YorkandAdams »

Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
ohio jones wrote: And how do people know who the bigger contributors are? :?
If they do, something is wrong.
In some churches, it is not public knowledge but the elders, pastors and/or board know where the big cheques are coming from. I knew of one church who posted at year end what everyone gave. I have also seen the givings broken down into categories and when the top category was in the tens of thousands of dollars and the givers were few in that category, it wasn't hard to suspect who these givers are. Also, ushers in some churches see the cheques given and word gets around. Ideally, no one but the treasurer should know who gives what and perhaps this is how most Anabaptist churches control this, I don't know.
It is my understanding with the envelope system nobody needs to know how much anyone is giving. The envelopes are numbered. Each individual gets enough envelopes at the beginning of the year to last the year. All of his envelopes have the same number. The amount enclosed whether it be cash or a check is written on the outside. This makes it possible for whoever is counting the offering to add up the total. The bank, I am told, will take the money from the envelops and return them to whoever is making the deposit. The treasurer keeps the envelopes to return to the individuals at the end of the year along with a statement of the total for that individual if they want to use their donations as a tax write-off. Only the donor knows their number and picks up their envelopes and statement from a table or wherever they are placed at the end of the year. In this way, nobody but the donor knows how much anyone is giving.
My church uses numbered envelopes, but the deacon still counts the money before it is sent to the bank. You also have to remember that people can make mistakes easily when writing checks. I have seen the deacon hand a person there check back when it was not written correctly/signed. So under our system, the deacon knows who is writing the large checks. I put cash in my envelope to remain anonymous, but in all reality, the deacon probably knows my number. I don't have a large enough income to make a significant difference in the offering totals, but I still give my first fruits (no matter how small they might currently be).
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RZehr
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by RZehr »

Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
It is my understanding with the envelope system nobody needs to know how much anyone is giving. The envelopes are numbered. Each individual gets enough envelopes at the beginning of the year to last the year. All of his envelopes have the same number. The amount enclosed whether it be cash or a check is written on the outside. This makes it possible for whoever is counting the offering to add up the total. The bank, I am told, will take the money from the envelops and return them to whoever is making the deposit. The treasurer keeps the envelopes to return to the individuals at the end of the year along with a statement of the total for that individual if they want to use their donations as a tax write-off. Only the donor knows their number and picks up their envelopes and statement from a table or wherever they are placed at the end of the year. In this way, nobody but the donor knows how much anyone is giving.
So the treasurer would know how much a person gave based on the statement? I don't think you can claim a deduction if the statement only has a number and not a name.

Right?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by ken_sylvania »

RZehr wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
It is my understanding with the envelope system nobody needs to know how much anyone is giving. The envelopes are numbered. Each individual gets enough envelopes at the beginning of the year to last the year. All of his envelopes have the same number. The amount enclosed whether it be cash or a check is written on the outside. This makes it possible for whoever is counting the offering to add up the total. The bank, I am told, will take the money from the envelops and return them to whoever is making the deposit. The treasurer keeps the envelopes to return to the individuals at the end of the year along with a statement of the total for that individual if they want to use their donations as a tax write-off. Only the donor knows their number and picks up their envelopes and statement from a table or wherever they are placed at the end of the year. In this way, nobody but the donor knows how much anyone is giving.
So the treasurer would know how much a person gave based on the statement? I don't think you can claim a deduction if the statement only has a number and not a name.

Right?
I don't believe a name is required on the statement. The IRS requires the acknowledgement to include (a) the amount of cash and a description of any property other than cash contributed, (b) whether any goods or services were provided in return and if so, the value of such goods or services, and (c) if the only goods or services provided in return were "intangible religious benefits," a statement to that effect. There does not appear to be a requirement for a name.

The only system I am familiar with is the anonymous envelope numbering system, and I've never known of names being (formally) associated with the numbers. Definitely possible that the deacon has an idea who the larger givers are, though.
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ohio jones
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by ohio jones »

RZehr wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
It is my understanding with the envelope system nobody needs to know how much anyone is giving. The envelopes are numbered. Each individual gets enough envelopes at the beginning of the year to last the year. All of his envelopes have the same number. The amount enclosed whether it be cash or a check is written on the outside. This makes it possible for whoever is counting the offering to add up the total. The bank, I am told, will take the money from the envelops and return them to whoever is making the deposit. The treasurer keeps the envelopes to return to the individuals at the end of the year along with a statement of the total for that individual if they want to use their donations as a tax write-off. Only the donor knows their number and picks up their envelopes and statement from a table or wherever they are placed at the end of the year. In this way, nobody but the donor knows how much anyone is giving.
So the treasurer would know how much a person gave based on the statement? I don't think you can claim a deduction if the statement only has a number and not a name.

Right?
That only applies if a single contribution (not the annual total) is $250 or more. In that case the receipt does have to have a name, and each contribution of $250 or more needs to be itemized. There are ways of doing this while preserving anonymity, if the person tracking the numbers and the person tracking the dollars coordinate their efforts.
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Wade
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by Wade »

Recently our Pastor said something about Jesus not noticing the size of the gift but rather the sacrifice.

How much is given isn't really impressive in this light. But neither should we try to make less so it is "easier" to claim such.
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appleman2006
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by appleman2006 »

steve-in-kville wrote:
Soloist wrote:I normally give money secretly and this time they needed help so I gave it directly to someone and I guess he told the moderator and thus I got the statement...
Giving directly is great, I've done it myself and it wasn't always someone in the church. Only problem there is it can snowball and get out of control. A local smallish conservative independent group (70-ish members) were having "deacon problems." Folks didn't think the deacon was helping the widows enough so instead of putting their 10% or whatever in the offering basket, they were giving directly to those in need. Sunday offerings went from $500 - $600/week to not even $100 in a matter of months. Before long, there wasn't enough money to cover other bills the church had!

Needless to say, that guy didn't stay deacon for very long after that...
I really hope that that story happened many years ago. 5 to 6 hundred a week average for 70 members. If they were all giving generously then wealth was not a problem in that congregation.
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steve-in-kville
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by steve-in-kville »

appleman2006 wrote:
I really hope that that story happened many years ago. 5 to 6 hundred a week average for 70 members. If they were all giving generously then wealth was not a problem in that congregation.
About 15 years ago. How's that saying go?? A cheap deacon makes for a cheap congregation?
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Re: What is our opinion of the wealthy among us?

Post by lesterb »

ken_sylvania wrote: The only system I am familiar with is the anonymous envelope numbering system, and I've never known of names being (formally) associated with the numbers. Definitely possible that the deacon has an idea who the larger givers are, though.
Interesting. I've never known of a church that used the system you are talking about here. I think I may have heard about it, but I've never seen it be an issue. I suppose a few people in our church just give cash, but then they don't get a receipt. We don't use envelopes at all, and most people use checks to give. (Actually, we use cheques, not checks.) Our receipts do not itemize individual amounts, but the treasurer's books do, in case of an audit. I've been a church auditor a few times, but I don't recall any particular amounts being given by a particular person. Unless a person is really riding a hobby horse, I doubt that most treasurers or auditors really remember things like that.

If you are really that concerned that no one knows what you give, then you shouldn't use your offerings as a tax write-off anyway.
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