Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Wayne in Maine »

mike wrote:
Valerie wrote:Mr. Jim advised me to go to an Orthodox forum, but I had been here before seeking to understand EO- and appreciated THIS forum- but perhaps it's time to let this one go. Doesn't mean I'm going to an EO forum- but- after all these years, I still would not know where we would fit in this branch of Christianity either-
It's probably been futile to try to see us all as Christians-
Valerie, we would consider letting you stay on this forum on the one condition that you end the concluding sentence of your post with a period, like proper folks. ;)
I had a keyboard like that once-
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Hats Off
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Hats Off »

Most of the time on a forum like this we should close with something other than a period - because we have not yet had the last word (to be continued) :D
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:At what point do we draw the line?
I don't know.

I do know how Jesus related to Samaritans, Gentiles, and others who were clearly not Jews, and how Paul addressed the people at Mars Hill. Ultimately, we are not the ones who draw the lines for those outside of our own fellowships. By all means, keep calling people to the Gospel, reminding them - and ourselves - of the things that so easily get lost in their traditions and ours. Preach the Word eagerly.

But judging and quarreling over opinions don't really help here.
Romans 14 wrote:As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
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Hats Off
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Hats Off »

Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:At what point do we draw the line?
I don't know.

I do know how Jesus related to Samaritans, Gentiles, and others who were clearly not Jews, and how Paul addressed the people at Mars Hill. Ultimately, we are not the ones who draw the lines for those outside of our own fellowships. By all means, keep calling people to the Gospel, reminding them - and ourselves - of the things that so easily get lost in their traditions and ours. Preach the Word eagerly.
We do know that Jesus revealed Himself to the Samaritan woman. We do know that Jesus used the example of the Samaritan in one of His Parables.

But judging and quarreling over opinions don't really help here.
Fortunately we are not called upon to judge. We can accept individuals as believing people even though we do not recognize their religion as being valid. I certainly have to work on not quarrelling here, but as someone has pointed out earlier, we do not want visitors to the forum think that EO understandings are normal for Anabpatists.
Romans 14 wrote:As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
Last edited by Hats Off on Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:If we are so sure that our own understandings are infallible, I would think that we could draw the line ourselves where we chose.
Isn't that exactly the trap that churches fall into when they believe that their own teachings are infallible? This is precisely why the teachings of all churches must always be measured against Scripture.
Valerie wrote:Admittedly I have learned to read the Orthodox writings and find them much more authoratative, then what seems to be guessing by so many others, in most things- others, my understanding is limited, but they have been instrumental to us to show to us where old heresies have resurfaced here and there in other denominations- probably with a 2000 year history they are really accustomed to recognizing them- and able to speak about them with experience & show us where these are in error-
You are convinced that this denomination is the same thing as The Church, and that they have always accurately identified what is heresy. You are convinced that attempts to understand Scripture are only guessing, but later traditions in your EO Bible's footnotes are telling you the true understanding. (An aside: I highly suggest that you locate the actual source of each tradition and read the whole thing before deciding whether to believe it. Most of these footnotes refer to early writings, and reading the whole thing and understanding where it came from can sometimes put things in a whole new light. And I have heard Orthodox who are not EOs question whether some of those footnotes represent Orthodox teaching.)

I am convinced that The Church is bigger than any one denomination, and that we have all fallen into heresy and sin from time to time, and that some of the things the Orthodox church does look a lot like worshipping human beings using religious acts that are normally reserved for worshipping deities and proclamations that go beyond what I think is appropriate for Mary. I am convinced that picking and choosing among traditions from Constantine through the Middle Ages is "only guessing" compared to relying on the clear words found in Scripture. And I will freely admit that other denominations have their own "only guessing" traditions.

Ultimately, the things that matter most are probably the things that Orthodox and Mennonites both say we believe in but usually fail to live out as we are called. And all the quarreling over opinions just distracts from what is most important. Jesus is Lord, no denomination is. If our devotion is to a denomination, we are practicing false religion.
mike wrote:Valerie, we would consider letting you stay on this forum on the one condition that you end the concluding sentence of your post with a period, like proper folks. ;)
I'm pretty sure Mike is just joking there.

But I think that there are people here who have read writings of the early Church in addition to Scripture, and whose beliefs are strong and based on quite a bit of study, prayer, and experience. I think things well go much better if we can be brethren without having to convert each other to our understandings, sharing our own understandings. I have to admit that I chafe when I see you use phrases like The Church to describe a particular denomination, or when you treat the footnotes of one particular study Bible as the authoritative teaching of The Church (when even the Orthodox Church does not give them that status). I also chafe when people suggest that Orthodox are not even Christians, because I know people who I believe are truly devoted to Jesus in a very good way and are part of the Orthodox Church.

If you are interested in understanding more about why we don't see Constantinian Christianity as the truest expression of biblical Christianity, we could keep talking or recommend some books or articles. But I suspect you might prefer that we let things die down in this thread at this point? We can always continue in this thread if EO comes up in other threads, but I would really prefer to not have to debate these same things in threads that are about other things. And I'd like it if *everyone* could try to keep switching to hot button debate topics like that.
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mike
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by mike »

Hats Off wrote:Most of the time on a forum like this we should close with something other than a period - because we have not yet had the last word (to be continued) :D
Excellent point. OK, so we should not only leave off the punctuation, but also the last
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by RZehr »

Why
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by temporal1 »

mike wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Most of the time on a forum like this we should close with something other than a period - because we have not yet had the last word (to be continued) :D
Excellent point. OK, so we should not only leave off the punctuation, but also the last
too funny.
this now reminds of a previous “point of forum exasperation” i was experiencing ..
i recall thinking this forum MUST be on its last legs, in its death throes, so few posting, such negativity.
i thot, “there should be an auction for ‘THE LAST WORD,’ ” :idea:
i was pretty convinced about who the high bidder might be. :P

since, the forum has continued, grown in ways, and gained a number of charitable, godly souls, which make me grateful for its continuance.

i have been present long enough to have witnessed some quite-uncharitable members, none are behaving so badly presently. prior to Robert’s presence, things could get pretty rough before any measure was taken. :-|

on the flip side of that, some of the uncharitable members left for a time, then returned with apologies/explanations. they each shared how they had gotten some things wrong, for various reasons, and wanted to make amends. these were always uplifting moments, they were met with warmth.

often, people do not think to return to make amends. it’s not that they might not want to, probably more that they don’t understand how much it’s appreciated.

anyway, Robert, there’s a fund-raising auction idea for you. :mrgreen:
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by mike »

RZehr wrote:Why
Humility is why, quite befitting a Mennonite
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by lesterb »

Bootstrap wrote:
Hats Off wrote:And yet the Kingdom of God has no room for disobedience.
Hmmmm.

Seems like there were differences of opinion and disobedience among the first disciples. God's grace is essential for all of us. We should never use that as an excuse for our own disobedience, but I'm reluctant to say that God's grace is not there for someone else who is zealously seeking to do the right thing as best they understand it.

After all, if we each knew each other better, we might each think the other is doing something wrong.
I still struggle with this, though. If we just throw the door open like this you know what will happen. Soon we'll be looking for the least common multiple in church life. That always leads downhill, because it eventually means that we can't stand for anything as a church that would offend someone else in a different church.

I don't think it's right to say that my church is the only true church, because my church is made up of humans. On the other hand, we do need to take some positions on Biblical truth.

As far as the apostles and disciples go, the NT church never left room for deliberate or habitual sin. They were human, and Paul did have a lot of patience with that, but he never said that living in sin is okay. I'm supposing that we will meet people in heaven that will surprise us. And we'll be grieved at some who don't get there. But how is that a good reason for me to not obey what the Bible says? Or to be part of a church that supports that?
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