Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Bootstrap
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote:I don't doubt that there are many good individuals in these settings, and others. But how far can we go in calling them fellow Christians when they are part of a system that we would reject as being unbiblical? Is God going to judge us on whether we were nice people? Or whether we were obedient to clear teachings of the Bible?

I tend to agree with this post, yet I struggle with some of this. Churches like the EO, etc. disobey some pretty clear teachings of the Bible. Yet we say they are fellow Christians. :-|
From where I sit, my fellow Christians are doing all kinds of things I would not. That includes quite a few in the Mennonite / Anabaptist camp too. And some of them feel the same way about me.

That makes me very reluctant to judge, but also reluctant to join in where Scriptural commands that seem clear to me are being violated. I will share how I understand things, but I'm quite confident that people I strongly disagree with will be worshipping God eternally in the final days.
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mike
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

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lesterb wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:My experience is mostly with Greek Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox, not Evangelical Orthodox.

I think the priest of the local Greek Orthodox church is a lot like what you describe, outside of the service. But the fancy clothes and the mystic rituals surrounding communion and the areas where only he can go and kissing his hand as an icon of Christ... that's all pretty foreign to Mennonite sensibilities, and more Constantinian than early Church or biblical as I see it. Some of the things said about Mary in the liturgy just feel wrong to me.

I think he is a fine Christian, and I like him. I visit his church from time to time. I don't think he will ever become Mennonite. I don't think I will ever become Orthodox. We both believe we are one in Christ, and we may well find ourselves serving together some day.

Yesterday, a Greek teacher from an Orthodox seminary asked if I would like to go to Mount Athos with him. I'd love that, I don't know that I have the money or time to do that. But I will continue to work with him, and we each support the other's work. But he won't ever become Mennonite either. Let's have grace for that and be one in Christ, even if we are not part of the same denomination.
I don't doubt that there are many good individuals in these settings, and others. But how far can we go in calling them fellow Christians when they are part of a system that we would reject as being unbiblical? Is God going to judge us on whether we were nice people? Or whether we were obedient to clear teachings of the Bible?

I tend to agree with this post, yet I struggle with some of this. Churches like the EO, etc. disobey some pretty clear teachings of the Bible. Yet we say they are fellow Christians. :-|
Anabaptists aren't Orthodox for more reasons than infant baptism and candles and icons. There's nonresistance.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
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Bootstrap
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

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mike wrote:Anabaptists aren't Orthodox for more reasons than infant baptism and candles and icons. There's nonresistance.
All of those things are different conclusions we have reached.

But we reach those conclusions because we have different understandings about what the church is, where you find authoritative teaching, the relationship between the individual and the church, the relationship between the Kingdom of God and Caesar, what biblical worship looks like, the role of the Bible, the authority of church leaders, what looks like idolatry, what looks like discipleship ...

These aren't just a few surface level differences. Yet I still believe the Kingdom of God is bigger than my little corner of the Kingdom.
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

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And yet the Kingdom of God has no room for disobedience.
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

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Hats Off wrote:And yet the Kingdom of God has no room for disobedience.
Hmmmm.

Seems like there were differences of opinion and disobedience among the first disciples. God's grace is essential for all of us. We should never use that as an excuse for our own disobedience, but I'm reluctant to say that God's grace is not there for someone else who is zealously seeking to do the right thing as best they understand it.

After all, if we each knew each other better, we might each think the other is doing something wrong.
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

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GaryK wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote: I try to be gentle (most of the time) when disagreeing - I think most times others have something good to add to a discussion. But continuously implying that the EO are the only orthodox Church does not sit well with me. When I see pictures of the buildings and all the trappings that go with it, I am sorry but to me that is plain and simple idolatry. I was an Anabaptist before I was familiar with the word and enjoy meeting other people from an Anabaptist faith. Your constant reference to EO is tiring.
Well, it's good to be gentle, even if Jesus wasn't always gentle and conveying truth and neither were his disciples when up against false doctrine or pharisees, or what have you- a lack of understanding of things can lead to wrong assumptions, and the Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy which they were clearly wrong of- I think we can make idols out of things in Anabaptism too, and confuse people like when you share about colored strings on womens coverings Hats Off- why is that considered Scriptural? Tell me why I'm supposed to believe that is Spirit led? If you were Anabaptist before you knew the word that is because of your own interpretations and understandings. Others have gone through seeking Anabaptism and left for EO as well(well MB's have left Anabaptism for EO as well)- so whose right? My suggestion is since I am not the one who started this thread, Boot is- that if you tire of reading about EO then don't enter the threads about EO that Boot starts- but to expect it to be a one way conversation in this type of thread is unrealistic.
Valerie, IMO, what you have to say about the EO vs Anabaptists would hold more weight if you would join the EO. The fact that you haven't after a few years of vigorously defending it as the one true church is telling. I say this gently. :)
I understand your point, and I imagine people probably wonder why I had done this type of defending in discussions of the Anabaptists I was seeking and defending for years when I was met with much opposition from those who were concerned we were going the way of the Anabaptists- as they had their own reasons and concerns over why we would go Anabaptists- simply put- when you leave you're 'tradition' (Pentecost type) that you've been in most of your life and you're seeking where the Lord would have you, and meet folks in other denominations whose faith and practice you find inspirational, and you were not 'born' into it, at least for us, we have to really learn about it all- why it's so different than where we came from- and during this journey we have had to 'get over' our own understandings in many areas we assumed right, OR those that we assumed wrong- but that is because we didn't understand- I found myself in same discussions when people assumed wrong things about Anabaptists too- and even if those explanations helped, it wasn't always convincing to others that Anabaptists were the 'correct' ones in all things-

Lord have mercy on the entire worldwide Church, let Him Be God exalted above our schisms- Let Him be praised in spite of ourselves-
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

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Bootstrap wrote:
Valerie wrote:My suggestion is since I am not the one who started this thread, Boot is- that if you tire of reading about EO then don't enter the threads about EO that Boot starts- but to expect it to be a one way conversation in this type of thread is unrealistic.
I started this thread precisely because it leaks into so many other threads that were started to discuss things from an Anabaptist perspective. When we are doing that, EO is a red herring, especially if we are told that the Orthodox have it right and we have it wrong. So I wanted to discuss it in one place, and discuss it from an Anabaptist perspective. I get tired of reading this in so many other threads.

If you do not insert EO into other threads, I bet nobody else will bring it up. I don't think I'm the person who keeps mentioning EOs here, and you often do seem to imply that we are doing something wrong by not choosing to be Orthodox. Most people go to Orthodox forums if they want to discuss things from that perspective.
Boot I think you know there are many times someone else has put in a reference to EO that I then tried to clarify and it turned into a new topic- not started by me, I haven't always been the one who leeked EO into the discussions- but you are correct, Mr. Jim advised me to go to an Orthodox forum, but I had been here before seeking to understand EO- and appreciated THIS forum- but perhaps it's time to let this one go. Doesn't mean I'm going to an EO forum- but- after all these years, I still would not know where we would fit in this branch of Christianity either-
It's probably been futile to try to see us all as Christians-
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Josh »

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses fellow Christians?

Mormons?

Alawites?

Non-theistic Quakers?

At what point do we draw the line?
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

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Josh wrote:Are Jehovah’s Witnesses fellow Christians?

Mormons?

Alawites?

Non-theistic Quakers?

At what point do we draw the line?
Jehoveh Witness are non-resistant, yet considered heretics correct?

Mormons believed in a false prophets false prophecies and false doctrines and added the Book of Mormon- again, heresies
(most consider these cults)

Not sure about the other two, not familiar, but Jesus is the ultimate judge of souls-

I do not want to stand before Him condemned of bearing false witness, but there is Apostolic doctrine and
Ephesians 4 gives testimony to what the faith is- and that we should all 'speak the same things' in other passages-
At the time of the Reformation the gates of Hades did not prevail against the Church but it sure did open the door for myriads of interpretations and claims of being the right ones-

If we are so sure that our own understandings are infallible, I would think that we could draw the line ourselves where we chose.

Admittedly I have learned to read the Orthodox writings and find them much more authoratative, then what seems to be guessing by so many others, in most things- others, my understanding is limited, but they have been instrumental to us to show to us where old heresies have resurfaced here and there in other denominations- probably with a 2000 year history they are really accustomed to recognizing them- and able to speak about them with experience & show us where these are in error-
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mike
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

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Valerie wrote:Mr. Jim advised me to go to an Orthodox forum, but I had been here before seeking to understand EO- and appreciated THIS forum- but perhaps it's time to let this one go. Doesn't mean I'm going to an EO forum- but- after all these years, I still would not know where we would fit in this branch of Christianity either-
It's probably been futile to try to see us all as Christians-
Valerie, we would consider letting you stay on this forum on the one condition that you end the concluding sentence of your post with a period, like proper folks. ;)
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
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