Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
haithabu
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by haithabu »

Wayne in Maine wrote:Hierarchy may have been the wrong word, though absent the modern fundamentalist idea that the bible is a single book with a single author, the Anabaptists did seem to have a "canon within a canon", much as the Jews held the Law above the prophets.

I will say in answer to Neto that the consensus, or at least the common assumption of most scholars of Anabaptism I have read, is that the Anabaptists emphasized the New Testament, particularly the Sermon on the Mount and the sayings of Jesus. One writer, on making this observation, stated "Anabaptist New Testament Biblicism appears to have been shaped solely by an individual and collective desire to follow Christ."

John Oyer stated: "The Anabaptists always preferred the New Testament over the Old Testament..." and notes that in the 16th and 17th century scripture cited in preaching narrowed even further to the Gospels, particularly Matthew's gospel.

William Estep, in "The Anabaptist Story" calls attention to Anabaptist Christocentrism. They understood God's revelation to be progressive such that the New Testament alone was the rule of faith and practice for the Anabpatists. (William Estep, The Anabaptist Story 140-145)

I agree. According to Anabaptists (and I think that is pretty much without exception across all groups), the central idea of the Christian faith is one of discipleship.
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.
Deurteronomy 18:18,19
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haithabu
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by haithabu »

Bootstrap wrote:
haithabu wrote:The way I think of it is in Matthew 23 where Jesus refers to "the weightier provisions of the Law" - justice and mercy and faithfulness. Now there is nothing in the Law of Moses that I know of that explicitly commands all those things or give them priority as more "weighty". (Though you do begin to see it in the prophets.)
But perhaps also in Deuteronomy? It takes a little reading between the lines, but I think it is there.
I agree that it is implicit within the Law.
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Valerie
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote: In general, the high churches are run by the clergy for the people. Mennonite churches are based on a brotherhood model - ideally, even the pastor is just one of the brethren, though we too can sometimes exalt our pastor beyond what I see as biblical.

So we really do have a very different idea of what a church should look like.
You're experience in EO & mine are completely different- the preist where we fellowshipped a year or more has more of a servants heart than most people I've known in Christianity- the man is constantly serving his congregation- they love & honor him as a representative & servant of the Lord-

I have not seen any kind of distance between the priest and the people as they all are a brotherhood together but his role as priest is biblical, as well as probably a distinction in how to interpret this passage of Scripture- there is a place for hierarchy & leadership to receive honor:

1 Timothy 5:17
17Elders who lead effectively are worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and, “The worker is worthy of his wages.”…


hierarchy in a world wide Church is used to 'organize' and help the Church- otherwise we can really have an identification of sectarianism in such a way that is really confusing to outsiders/unbelievers-

I don't care if Mennonites are Orthodox- we can all stay in our own sheep pens like the county fair where people come and notice how different we all are each in our own prideful assumptions.
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Valerie
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Valerie, I shouldn't take offense over your treatment of the Anabaptists but I can't seem to help it. You are definitely not very kind. I think some of your treatment is inappropriate for this forum!
Hats Off, I am sorry if you feel I am unkind, - it has been my understanding from the beginning of studying the Anabaptists from their earliest days, that they had no issue with questioning others' faith. Then I read the Heartbeat of the Remnant (Anabaptist publication) which was continually criticizing Evangelicals- so much so, one reader wrote he no longer could subscribe to that publication. So the impression I have gotten through the 10 years now of studying and learning all things Anabaptist, is that they are forthright in their discussing their views on all other denominations- when I came 'here' to Mennodsucss as a seeker, I valued Anabaptists so much that people probably tired of me using them as examples- actually, if you heard my praises about them for the last 10 years it probably would really surprise you.

I am sorry, indiscussing these things I don't mean to be unkind, it is not my intention, I am trying to understand a LOT of things right now- please know I still greatly admire and share good things about Anabaptists to others.
I try to be gentle (most of the time) when disagreeing - I think most times others have something good to add to a discussion. But continuously implying that the EO are the only orthodox Church does not sit well with me. When I see pictures of the buildings and all the trappings that go with it, I am sorry but to me that is plain and simple idolatry. I was an Anabaptist before I was familiar with the word and enjoy meeting other people from an Anabaptist faith. Your constant reference to EO is tiring.
Well, it's good to be gentle, even if Jesus wasn't always gentle and conveying truth and neither were his disciples when up against false doctrine or pharisees, or what have you- a lack of understanding of things can lead to wrong assumptions, and the Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy which they were clearly wrong of- I think we can make idols out of things in Anabaptism too, and confuse people like when you share about colored strings on womens coverings Hats Off- why is that considered Scriptural? Tell me why I'm supposed to believe that is Spirit led? If you were Anabaptist before you knew the word that is because of your own interpretations and understandings. Others have gone through seeking Anabaptism and left for EO as well(well MB's have left Anabaptism for EO as well)- so whose right? My suggestion is since I am not the one who started this thread, Boot is- that if you tire of reading about EO then don't enter the threads about EO that Boot starts- but to expect it to be a one way conversation in this type of thread is unrealistic.
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GaryK
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by GaryK »

Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Hats Off, I am sorry if you feel I am unkind, - it has been my understanding from the beginning of studying the Anabaptists from their earliest days, that they had no issue with questioning others' faith. Then I read the Heartbeat of the Remnant (Anabaptist publication) which was continually criticizing Evangelicals- so much so, one reader wrote he no longer could subscribe to that publication. So the impression I have gotten through the 10 years now of studying and learning all things Anabaptist, is that they are forthright in their discussing their views on all other denominations- when I came 'here' to Mennodsucss as a seeker, I valued Anabaptists so much that people probably tired of me using them as examples- actually, if you heard my praises about them for the last 10 years it probably would really surprise you.

I am sorry, indiscussing these things I don't mean to be unkind, it is not my intention, I am trying to understand a LOT of things right now- please know I still greatly admire and share good things about Anabaptists to others.
I try to be gentle (most of the time) when disagreeing - I think most times others have something good to add to a discussion. But continuously implying that the EO are the only orthodox Church does not sit well with me. When I see pictures of the buildings and all the trappings that go with it, I am sorry but to me that is plain and simple idolatry. I was an Anabaptist before I was familiar with the word and enjoy meeting other people from an Anabaptist faith. Your constant reference to EO is tiring.
Well, it's good to be gentle, even if Jesus wasn't always gentle and conveying truth and neither were his disciples when up against false doctrine or pharisees, or what have you- a lack of understanding of things can lead to wrong assumptions, and the Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy which they were clearly wrong of- I think we can make idols out of things in Anabaptism too, and confuse people like when you share about colored strings on womens coverings Hats Off- why is that considered Scriptural? Tell me why I'm supposed to believe that is Spirit led? If you were Anabaptist before you knew the word that is because of your own interpretations and understandings. Others have gone through seeking Anabaptism and left for EO as well(well MB's have left Anabaptism for EO as well)- so whose right? My suggestion is since I am not the one who started this thread, Boot is- that if you tire of reading about EO then don't enter the threads about EO that Boot starts- but to expect it to be a one way conversation in this type of thread is unrealistic.
Valerie, IMO, what you have to say about the EO vs Anabaptists would hold more weight if you would join the EO. The fact that you haven't after a few years of vigorously defending it as the one true church is telling. I say this gently. :)
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Bootstrap
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:My suggestion is since I am not the one who started this thread, Boot is- that if you tire of reading about EO then don't enter the threads about EO that Boot starts- but to expect it to be a one way conversation in this type of thread is unrealistic.
I started this thread precisely because it leaks into so many other threads that were started to discuss things from an Anabaptist perspective. When we are doing that, EO is a red herring, especially if we are told that the Orthodox have it right and we have it wrong. So I wanted to discuss it in one place, and discuss it from an Anabaptist perspective. I get tired of reading this in so many other threads.

If you do not insert EO into other threads, I bet nobody else will bring it up. I don't think I'm the person who keeps mentioning EOs here, and you often do seem to imply that we are doing something wrong by not choosing to be Orthodox. Most people go to Orthodox forums if they want to discuss things from that perspective.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hats Off
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Hats Off »

Valerie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Hats Off, I am sorry if you feel I am unkind, - it has been my understanding from the beginning of studying the Anabaptists from their earliest days, that they had no issue with questioning others' faith. Then I read the Heartbeat of the Remnant (Anabaptist publication) which was continually criticizing Evangelicals- so much so, one reader wrote he no longer could subscribe to that publication. So the impression I have gotten through the 10 years now of studying and learning all things Anabaptist, is that they are forthright in their discussing their views on all other denominations- when I came 'here' to Mennodsucss as a seeker, I valued Anabaptists so much that people probably tired of me using them as examples- actually, if you heard my praises about them for the last 10 years it probably would really surprise you.

I am sorry, indiscussing these things I don't mean to be unkind, it is not my intention, I am trying to understand a LOT of things right now- please know I still greatly admire and share good things about Anabaptists to others.
I try to be gentle (most of the time) when disagreeing - I think most times others have something good to add to a discussion. But continuously implying that the EO are the only orthodox Church does not sit well with me. When I see pictures of the buildings and all the trappings that go with it, I am sorry but to me that is plain and simple idolatry. I was an Anabaptist before I was familiar with the word and enjoy meeting other people from an Anabaptist faith. Your constant reference to EO is tiring.
Well, it's good to be gentle, even if Jesus wasn't always gentle and conveying truth and neither were his disciples when up against false doctrine or pharisees, or what have you- a lack of understanding of things can lead to wrong assumptions, and the Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy which they were clearly wrong of- I think we can make idols out of things in Anabaptism too, and confuse people like when you share about colored strings on womens coverings Hats Off- why is that considered Scriptural? Tell me why I'm supposed to believe that is Spirit led?
Old Order Mennonites do not insist that everything they do has a reason in scripture. Things like black covering strings are simply a preference. They are not idols. It is just a fact that I shared to indicate a variety of practices and has nothing to do with this thread.
If you were Anabaptist before you knew the word that is because of your own interpretations and understandings.
It really was not my own understanding originally, it is an understanding that has been passed on for generations and one that I have accepted as my own at the time of my baptism. At least I know what I believe and have stayed with that over many years while continuing to study and learn.
Others have gone through seeking Anabaptism and left for EO as well(well MB's have left Anabaptism for EO as well)- so whose right? My suggestion is since I am not the one who started this thread, Boot is- that if you tire of reading about EO then don't enter the threads about EO that Boot starts- but to expect it to be a one way conversation in this type of thread is unrealistic.
Mennonites are not about elaborate buildings and rich accessories and incense and chants. If someone is looking for this type of thing, then they will be disappointed with Anabaptists. We don't have sacraments that are mysteries or elaborate rituals. We do have rituals whether we like to think so or not but they are simply a pattern we follow to maintain order and so members know what to expect.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:You're experience in EO & mine are completely different- the preist where we fellowshipped a year or more has more of a servants heart than most people I've known in Christianity- the man is constantly serving his congregation- they love & honor him as a representative & servant of the Lord-
My experience is mostly with Greek Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox, not Evangelical Orthodox.

I think the priest of the local Greek Orthodox church is a lot like what you describe, outside of the service. But the fancy clothes and the mystic rituals surrounding communion and the areas where only he can go and kissing his hand as an icon of Christ... that's all pretty foreign to Mennonite sensibilities, and more Constantinian than early Church or biblical as I see it. Some of the things said about Mary in the liturgy just feel wrong to me.

I think he is a fine Christian, and I like him. I visit his church from time to time. I don't think he will ever become Mennonite. I don't think I will ever become Orthodox. We both believe we are one in Christ, and we may well find ourselves serving together some day.

Yesterday, a Greek teacher from an Orthodox seminary asked if I would like to go to Mount Athos with him. I'd love that, I don't know that I have the money or time to do that. But I will continue to work with him, and we each support the other's work. But he won't ever become Mennonite either. Let's have grace for that and be one in Christ, even if we are not part of the same denomination.
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by lesterb »

Bootstrap wrote:
Valerie wrote:You're experience in EO & mine are completely different- the preist where we fellowshipped a year or more has more of a servants heart than most people I've known in Christianity- the man is constantly serving his congregation- they love & honor him as a representative & servant of the Lord-
My experience is mostly with Greek Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox, not Evangelical Orthodox.

I think the priest of the local Greek Orthodox church is a lot like what you describe, outside of the service. But the fancy clothes and the mystic rituals surrounding communion and the areas where only he can go and kissing his hand as an icon of Christ... that's all pretty foreign to Mennonite sensibilities, and more Constantinian than early Church or biblical as I see it. Some of the things said about Mary in the liturgy just feel wrong to me.

I think he is a fine Christian, and I like him. I visit his church from time to time. I don't think he will ever become Mennonite. I don't think I will ever become Orthodox. We both believe we are one in Christ, and we may well find ourselves serving together some day.

Yesterday, a Greek teacher from an Orthodox seminary asked if I would like to go to Mount Athos with him. I'd love that, I don't know that I have the money or time to do that. But I will continue to work with him, and we each support the other's work. But he won't ever become Mennonite either. Let's have grace for that and be one in Christ, even if we are not part of the same denomination.
I don't doubt that there are many good individuals in these settings, and others. But how far can we go in calling them fellow Christians when they are part of a system that we would reject as being unbiblical? Is God going to judge us on whether we were nice people? Or whether we were obedient to clear teachings of the Bible?

I tend to agree with this post, yet I struggle with some of this. Churches like the EO, etc. disobey some pretty clear teachings of the Bible. Yet we say they are fellow Christians. :-|
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Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Wayne in Maine »

lesterb wrote:I don't doubt that there are many good individuals in these settings, and others. But how far can we go in calling them fellow Christians when they are part of a system that we would reject as being unbiblical? Is God going to judge us on whether we were nice people? Or whether we were obedient to clear teachings of the Bible?

I tend to agree with this post, yet I struggle with some of this. Churches like the EO, etc. disobey some pretty clear teachings of the Bible. Yet we say they are fellow Christians. :-|
Thank you for saying this Lester. I'm glad the ancient Anabaptists saw fit to recognize the followers of Luther and Zwingli and Rome as in need of the authentic Gospel.
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