Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14438
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:Why
Why does Greek use a semicolon instead of a question mark;
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
ohio jones
Posts: 5221
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: undisclosed
Affiliation: Rosedale Network

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by ohio jones »

RZehr wrote:Why
W
.
0 x
I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
GaryK
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Georgia
Affiliation: Unaffiliated

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by GaryK »

Valerie wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Well, it's good to be gentle, even if Jesus wasn't always gentle and conveying truth and neither were his disciples when up against false doctrine or pharisees, or what have you- a lack of understanding of things can lead to wrong assumptions, and the Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy which they were clearly wrong of- I think we can make idols out of things in Anabaptism too, and confuse people like when you share about colored strings on womens coverings Hats Off- why is that considered Scriptural? Tell me why I'm supposed to believe that is Spirit led? If you were Anabaptist before you knew the word that is because of your own interpretations and understandings. Others have gone through seeking Anabaptism and left for EO as well(well MB's have left Anabaptism for EO as well)- so whose right? My suggestion is since I am not the one who started this thread, Boot is- that if you tire of reading about EO then don't enter the threads about EO that Boot starts- but to expect it to be a one way conversation in this type of thread is unrealistic.
Valerie, IMO, what you have to say about the EO vs Anabaptists would hold more weight if you would join the EO. The fact that you haven't after a few years of vigorously defending it as the one true church is telling. I say this gently. :)
I understand your point, and I imagine people probably wonder why I had done this type of defending in discussions of the Anabaptists I was seeking and defending for years when I was met with much opposition from those who were concerned we were going the way of the Anabaptists- as they had their own reasons and concerns over why we would go Anabaptists- simply put- when you leave you're 'tradition' (Pentecost type) that you've been in most of your life and you're seeking where the Lord would have you, and meet folks in other denominations whose faith and practice you find inspirational, and you were not 'born' into it, at least for us, we have to really learn about it all- why it's so different than where we came from- and during this journey we have had to 'get over' our own understandings in many areas we assumed right, OR those that we assumed wrong- but that is because we didn't understand- I found myself in same discussions when people assumed wrong things about Anabaptists too- and even if those explanations helped, it wasn't always convincing to others that Anabaptists were the 'correct' ones in all things-

Lord have mercy on the entire worldwide Church, let Him Be God exalted above our schisms- Let Him be praised in spite of ourselves-
I think there is a significant difference in defending the Anabaptists and the EO. You never defended the Anabaptists as the one and only TRUE church but you do so with the EO. What's hard for me to understand is this, if indeed you are convinced the EO is the one and only TRUE church, then you should be a member of it, but you aren't. IMO, if you don't join it you are just as much a part of all the schisms as any other person or group. IMO, believing something to be true and defending that belief without acting on it doesn't put you in a better place than anyone who does not believe the EO is the one and only TRUE church, which includes me.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Josh »

And there are at least 3 Anabaptist groups who hold to doctrine they are the one true church, so if Anabaptism and “no schisms” is what one craves, one has not just one true churn to choose from, but three. (Reformed, Holdeman, and Swartzentruber, possibly more)
0 x
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote: If you are interested in understanding more about why we don't see Constantinian Christianity as the truest expression of biblical Christianity, we could keep talking or recommend some books or articles. But I suspect you might prefer that we let things die down in this thread at this point? We can always continue in this thread if EO comes up in other threads, but I would really prefer to not have to debate these same things in threads that are about other things. And I'd like it if *everyone* could try to keep switching to hot button debate topics like that.
We have been gone a couple of days & so I only have a new york minute here- but yes- I would like to know what SPECIFICALLY you are suggesting that Constantine did, that influenced the Church regarding Mary- because many of my assumptions to that affect were answered by EO, that gave a clearer explanation that made me realize Constantine nor pagans had anything to do with these practices that we 'think' they did, often it was pagans that were copying the way God's people did, what God told them to do- counterfeit, and we often get this backwards I have found by doing more digging and not relying on the surface appearance. That is only fair.

To all the other notifications I received while away, I can't answer presently, have to go to work but this one here, has come up many times through the years and I would have originally agreed to a large degree- without seeking more to understand.
(should I have ended in a period or ! or ?)
0 x
Ernie
Posts: 5445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:48 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Anabaptist Umbrella
Contact:

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Ernie »

Valerie wrote:I am not sure how they define it, I really hadn't heard that term (Church Age) while in the Pentecost Church which tends to be more dispensationalist- I'm thinking I learned the term from the Orthodox Church- (and perhaps OSB)
Valerie wrote: I see the founder of the Moravians was declared a heretic and burned at the stake- of course this is upsetting. At some point in the west this was determined to be a practice of the church (in this case, I cannot capitalize Church because I do not believe God would have approved of the 'c'hurch doing this).
And that is precisely why I do not think of the EO as a church or the church.
Some of the main examples include (drawing from the entire history of the Eastern Church):
Persecution of Jews, pagans, and heretics (particularly Monophysites in Egypt) by Justinian and Heraclius (6th and 7th centuries)
Vicious persecution of the Paulicians and later Bogomils by the medieval Byzantine Empire
The persecution of the Old Believers in 17th-century Russia
Persecution of Stundists, Doukhobors, Molokans, and other dissenting groups in 19th-century Russia
Persecution of the "Lord's Army" during the Communist years in Romania--admittedly the Communist government was the main actor here, but the Orthodox hierarchy stood back and even aided and abetted the persecution
Persecution of Byzantine Catholics in several Eastern European countries, including Romania
Discrimination against various non-Orthodox groups, especially "neo-Protestant sects," in post-Communist Orthodox countries.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Valerie »

Ernie wrote:
Valerie wrote:I am not sure how they define it, I really hadn't heard that term (Church Age) while in the Pentecost Church which tends to be more dispensationalist- I'm thinking I learned the term from the Orthodox Church- (and perhaps OSB)
Valerie wrote: I see the founder of the Moravians was declared a heretic and burned at the stake- of course this is upsetting. At some point in the west this was determined to be a practice of the church (in this case, I cannot capitalize Church because I do not believe God would have approved of the 'c'hurch doing this).
And that is precisely why I do not think of the EO as a church or the church.
Some of the main examples include (drawing from the entire history of the Eastern Church):
Persecution of Jews, pagans, and heretics (particularly Monophysites in Egypt) by Justinian and Heraclius (6th and 7th centuries)
Vicious persecution of the Paulicians and later Bogomils by the medieval Byzantine Empire
The persecution of the Old Believers in 17th-century Russia
Persecution of Stundists, Doukhobors, Molokans, and other dissenting groups in 19th-century Russia
Persecution of the "Lord's Army" during the Communist years in Romania--admittedly the Communist government was the main actor here, but the Orthodox hierarchy stood back and even aided and abetted the persecution
Persecution of Byzantine Catholics in several Eastern European countries, including Romania
Discrimination against various non-Orthodox groups, especially "neo-Protestant sects," in post-Communist Orthodox countries.
The way I see it Ernie, God has not removed the lampstand from the EO Church- I know far too many faithful Christians in EO, some coming from your very heritage of Anabaptism. Why? What were they able to overcome? What truth did they seek out to help them realize the Orthodox Church isn't 'perfect', same as God's elect Israel, was not perfect- yet they are still the 'root' of our New Covenant faith.

I'm going to bounce your reply/information off a priest to get some perspective, I visited an EO Church in Southern California where I was last week visiting my family. This was a mission church started in the city my relatives live. Most members there were converts to Orthodoxy- Truly, Christ was in that place- if God be for us, who can be against us?

I would say, what one person calls 'persecution' may be an opinion based on their own interpretations- The Orthodox Church does not want Protestantism to become a sected out faith as it has in the west- no one can deny how terribly sected the Church is to the point people question the validity of the Holy Spirit really guiding the Church-- in these days. Even you Ernie, have broken away from your own previous sect within Anabaptism- and started over-
See the Church, since it's beginning, has always come against private interpretations and heresies- it is the responsibility of the Church- as I studied early Church history- the Church ALWAYS had to guard the faith and confront heretics sent by the spirit of the antichrist to divide & split the Church-
I agree with what Russia is doing by the way- missionaries mistakenly believed there was not Christian faith in Russia, not knowing there was an underground true faith waiting to be set free & worship once again- so now what- are you happy that Pentecostals/Charismatics attempt to 'save' the Russian Christians? Or the Baptists? Or who exactly do you believe should convert the EO Christians in Russia?
Jews persecuted the Christian faith- from the beginning. This is true- Apostle Paul had some pretty strong words for them.
0 x
RZehr
Posts: 7024
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:42 am
Affiliation: Cons. Mennonite

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by RZehr »

Valerie, why don't you join a church?
0 x
silentreader
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:41 pm
Affiliation: MidWest Fellowship

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by silentreader »

RZehr wrote:Valerie, why don't you join a church?
I think she wants to avoid persecution.
0 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Why Anabaptists and Mennonites are not Orthodox

Post by Valerie »

silentreader wrote:
RZehr wrote:Valerie, why don't you join a church?
I think she wants to avoid persecution.
I think persecution is used far too easily- none of us on this site have probably REAllY experienced persecution, eh? Agreed?
I don't consider being made fun of for my faith or losing a job for my beliefs real persecution.

Facing torture, martyrdom- etc- yes. Have not had to bear that cross as of yet.

To answer Rzehr's question- we took a break from seeking Anabaptism & Orthodoxy- both we found so much we admired but were unsure to take a membership route.

We WERE members in the same church for 20 years- having left Pentacostalism/charismatic direction/movement is not easy for us- we have been attending a non-denomination of a pastor/teaching we love for 2 years until we feel a clear leading. Thank you for your concern, I appreciate that-
0 x
Post Reply