Re-reforming the Church

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Re-reforming the Church

Post by Valerie »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:
lesterb wrote: That's true. But what bother us me is your constant references to the EO as being the only church that is not a schismatic group, and holding the original teaching of the apostles. That is so obviously not true that I think you would be doing yourself a favor by not continuing to repeat it.
I guess it is because all schismatic groups were started by 'someone' who started them with their own teachings- which you cannot find with EO- there is no one person that led this entire group away out of- 'well out of where?
Away out of simple Biblical obedience.
The effect is the same, whether the group drifted away under the leadership of one person or a group of people.

Your suggestion that every group other than EO was each started by a single person is historically inaccurate.
Millions of these EO Christians have given their life for Christ- most of the martyrs we hear of in other parts of the world, are from the 'backslidden' (as you assume) Christianity- having their heads cut off when given the choice to deny Christ and live- or die- I have known some very devout Christians that were baptized as infants and serve the Lord now-
You can assume that the entire Church fell away and all over the world these Believers are self deceived or not, I have a feeling many will be surprised on the other side- but it is for God to judge- they do also baptize adult converts, (out of simple obedience) but the claim is the Apostles taught to baptize infants- (even whole households) those who said this are either liars or telling the truth- I am not going to assume they are liars. Almost all my life I believed in Believers baptism as well, for same reasons- but I believe Jesus and how He said suffer not the chidren to come unto me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven- and they are welcome to be in His family, baptized, anointed, and raised in the fear and nurture of the Lord by their parents- some will leave the faith, some will stay- we are not forced to stay but I will not judge the whole world of Christians who believe this was taught by the Apostles, and why- and to them, they are being just as faithful to the Holy Spirit's guidance, as those who believe differently- I think the Church will truly be reformed when the pride of assuming we are right about everything and others are deceived, leaves- we are praying our way through this- not set in our own past teachers influence, seeking to understand- but I at this point don't see a reformation happening on this side- because some follow this person's beliefs, some that- and all seem thoroughly convinced-
Last edited by Valerie on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4577
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Re-reforming the Church

Post by Neto »

Persecution?
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
ken_sylvania
Posts: 3970
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:46 pm
Affiliation: CM

Re: Re-reforming the Church

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote: Millions of these EO Christians have given their life for Christ- most of the martyrs we hear of in other parts of the world, are from the 'backslidden' (as you assume) Christianity- having their heads cut off when given the choice to deny Christ and live- or die- I have known some very devout Christians that were baptized as infants and serve the Lord now-
You can assume that the entire Church fell away and all over the world these Believers are self deceived or not, I have a feeling many will be surprised on the other side- but it is for God to judge- they do also baptize adult converts, (out of simple obedience) but the claim is the Apostles taught to baptize infants- (even whole households) those who said this are either liars or telling the truth- I am not going to assume they are liars. Almost all my life I believed in Believers baptism as well, for same reasons- but I believe Jesus and how He said suffer not the chidren to come unto me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven- and they are welcome to be in His family, baptized, anointed, and raised in the fear and nurture of the Lord by their parents- some will leave the faith, some will stay- we are not forced to stay but I will not judge the whole world of Christians who believe this was taught by the Apostles, and why- and to them, they are being just as faithful to the Holy Spirit's guidance, as those who believe differently- I think the Church will truly be reformed when the pride of assuming we are right about everything and others are deceived, leaves- we are praying our way through this- not set in our own past teachers influence, seeking to understand- but I at this point don't see a reformation happening on this side- because some follow this person's beliefs, some that- and all seem thoroughly convinced-
The New Testament is clear that there will be many who will be deceived, and instructs us to "try the spirits" to see whether they are of God. I'm not in a position to condemn the "millions of EO martyrs" that you are talking about. I don't know them. But I do know that the Eastern Orthodox priests who instigated the Kishinev pogrom in 1903 were not obeying Jesus.
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14441
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Re-reforming the Church

Post by Bootstrap »

Hats Off wrote:On the need for reformation, I believe too many of our Anabaptists have become the "new Pharisee" and would be no more open to necessary reformation than the "universal worldwide church" was, although we would not see them resorting to the same level of physical violence. I have often said that Conrad Grebel would not receive a much warmer welcome in our church than he did where he was.
This is good.

And one of the reasons it's important to focus on our own traditions is to think about how we bring what is best of Anabaptism to the world today. I hope our Catholic and Orthodox and Protestant brethren are doing the same in their own forums. I don't come here to discuss them - except where Protestants and Mennonites intersect in my own life.

Can we narrow this thread to Anabaptist / Mennonite understandings of what we need to re-reform the church?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Re-reforming the Church

Post by MaxPC »

Peregrino wrote:I just got done reading this thought-provoking article by Peter Mommsen.

The Church We Need Now

He covers a lot of the same ground as a number of the recent discussions on here, so I thought it would be interesting to post it here and open it up for comments.
Thank you for this article, Peregrino. It truly is thought-provoking and I like his term "recalibration". In science labs we always had to recalibrate the scales and other devices for measure because with time and usage, they were no longer accurate and in balance.
Article:
This year’s five-hundredth anniversary of the Reformation comes just as Christianity is undergoing what may prove to be its biggest recalibration since the fourth century. Christendom, the system in which Christianity shaped Western laws and society as the majority religion, has been shaky since the Enlightenment. Now it’s in its death throes, felled by secularization, consumerism, and the sexual revolution. For better or worse, Christians must learn to be a minority. There’s no better time than now to recall Karl Barth’s admonition: “The church must always be reformed.” What is the reformed church we need now?
I like the effort he's making to shake us out of complacency too. Well done.
:up:
Article:
Today, Christians of all traditions are realizing that we are again called, in the words of Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks, to form a creative minority. This means building “thick” communities in which disciples can be formed and the faith passed on to the next generation. Recent books by writers as diverse as Russell Moore, Rod Dreher, and Archbishop Charles Chaput are helping to point out the way. Pastors such as Jin Kim and Claudio Oliver are exploring how to practice communal Christianity in different contexts. The Anabaptists’ example proves that this is no mere pipe dream, but an actual possibility… and a necessity?

Certainly, the picture is incomplete unless we acknowledge Anabaptism’s weaknesses over the last five centuries, including a tendency to legalism and a bewildering number of schisms. Yet isn’t it remarkable that this ragtag movement, made up primarily of artisans and farmers, got so much right that Europe’s greatest minds got wrong? In the Anabaptists’ communities, the spirit of early Christianity came alive because they went ad fontes – back to the sources – and ad fontem – back to the Source. We should all do the same.
Amen. :clap:
By the time of the reformation, Europe's intelligentsia suffered from what I call "intellectual inbreeding". They became a "good ol' boys' think tank" of mutual back-clapping instead of looking anew at the Scriptures and "recalibrating" the church to divest the erroneous accretions. The culture and the church had become a symbiosis of customs rather than a dynamic of evangelization. It happened again by the 1940s and so arose the need for a new Vatican Council. Without renewal and recalibration, we end up with stagnation and error.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Post Reply