Too big, too small, or just right??

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
User avatar
steve-in-kville
Posts: 9512
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:36 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Affiliation: Hippie Anabaptist

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by steve-in-kville »

Biblical Anabaptist wrote: I have heard of churches doing this but in my mind that is a "church" within a church. IMO an attendance of around 50 including children makes a group that is large enough to function but small enough to not let anyone "slip through the cracks".

That's all great until financial needs must be met. So unless there is a "sugar daddy" or two, its not feasible. That's been my experience anyway.
0 x
I self-identify as a conspiracy theorist. My pronouns are told/you/so.

Owner/admin at https://milepost81.com/
For parents, railfans, and much more!
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23806
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by Josh »

steve-in-kville wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote: I have heard of churches doing this but in my mind that is a "church" within a church. IMO an attendance of around 50 including children makes a group that is large enough to function but small enough to not let anyone "slip through the cracks".

That's all great until financial needs must be met. So unless there is a "sugar daddy" or two, its not feasible. That's been my experience anyway.
There should be fellowship and conferences with other churches of like precious faith who all share needs with each other and find opportunities to serve together.
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4574
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by Neto »

About 7 years ago, when we were involved in an outreach (branch) congregation, we were asked to write up some of our goals for the new congregation. I called my document "My Dream Church", and one item was that at about 150 members, the congregation should start working towards starting a new congregation. (I wanted it in the congregation's constitution, so that it would not be forgotten.) Our home congregation has started 4 new congregations since 1995, when we started attending there (joining in January of 1996). I do really believe that there is more growth overall by dividing than there ever would be if no new groups are started. It gets more people involved in the work of the Gospel, and that promotes spiritual growth, as well as growth in numbers.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Biblical Anabaptist
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:33 pm
Location: South Central PA
Affiliation: Unaffiliated Menno

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

steve-in-kville wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote: I have heard of churches doing this but in my mind that is a "church" within a church. IMO an attendance of around 50 including children makes a group that is large enough to function but small enough to not let anyone "slip through the cracks".

That's all great until financial needs must be met. So unless there is a "sugar daddy" or two, its not feasible. That's been my experience anyway.
Just because a congregation divides doesn't mean they can not still share financial burdens.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by Sudsy »

Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
Sudsy wrote:We have 2 back to back identical Sunday services but there is some thought to a bigger sanctuary. Personally, I think a huge sanctuary that only is used on a Sunday is quite a waste of money. To accommodate a more personal community brotherhood we have small care groups of under 20 that meet in homes of people who can accommodate them. The same bible study is had by all groups that coincide with the Sunday sermons. We have just started an 8 week series on spiritual warfare. We also use e:mail and facebook and other means to ask questions of the teaching pastor at any time and for fellowship. Daily devotions, weekly sermons and announcements are always available on the Internet. Our MB church is very modern and attracts many teens and young married couples. Many teen and children programs.

I don't have a problem with the size of a church but do have concerns if a church is not growing steadily. Numbers matter to Jesus as He is willing that none should perish and that all come to repentance. I don't need to know everyone that well in the church I attend but I love seeing new faces and hearing their testimonies at baptism time.
I have heard of churches doing this but in my mind that is a "church" within a church. IMO an attendance of around 50 including children makes a group that is large enough to function but small enough to not let anyone "slip through the cracks".
Actually, all of our groups are a church within a church (within The Church). One thing I like about a smaller group, like the 50 you prefer, is that for those who believe the gifts of the Spirit should be active in a local church, it allows for these to be operational if they follow the early church pattern that Paul spoke about.

Imo, we give up a great deal when we don't eagerly desire the supernatural gifts of the Spirit and format our meetings to allow for these gifts to operate. Many of us seldom see the supernatural at work in our meetings and we accept that as what the norm should be or we are so afraid of 'wild fire' (i.e. extreme emotionalism, uncontrolled spiritual activity) that we stay within our reserved forms of worship and fellowship. What could it be like if we really gave the Spirit control as Paul describes that kind of working in the Corinthian church ? I grew up in that kind of environment and experienced some of those gifts in operation. And, of course, in that environment, open to the Spirit, other opposing and deceiving spirits will surface and the gift of discernment is very much needed.

Well, I guess I wondered a bit off topic again. Continue.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
User avatar
ohio jones
Posts: 5221
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: undisclosed
Affiliation: Rosedale Network

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by ohio jones »

Sudsy wrote:Many of us seldom see the supernatural at work in our meetings and we accept that as what the norm should be or we are so afraid of 'wild fire' (i.e. extreme emotionalism, uncontrolled spiritual activity) that we stay within our reserved forms of worship and fellowship.
It isn't always a fear of 'wild fire'. Sometimes it's like MennoNet tells me when I look for unread posts too soon after the last search:
No suitable matches were found.
0 x
I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
Soloist
Posts: 5481
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:49 pm
Affiliation: CM Seeker

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by Soloist »

If the church is too small, like house church size thats not necessarily a problem, but I think that unless there is a qualified leader that the "small" church is willing to submit to as the bishop that they should have oversight from a local church bishop.
The small churches generally have some serious stability issues going on and may not have a qualified leader.

My opinion on oversight is that it doesn't work unless they come out at least close to once monthly and more as needed. Seems like a bishop shouldn't oversee more than one extra church... but that likely doesn't always happen.
0 x
Soloist, but I hate singing alone
Soloist, but my wife posts with me
Soloist, but I believe in community
Soloist, but I want God in the pilot seat
Peregrino
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:16 pm
Affiliation:

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by Peregrino »

Soloist wrote:If the church is too small, like house church size thats not necessarily a problem, but I think that unless there is a qualified leader that the "small" church is willing to submit to as the bishop that they should have oversight from a local church bishop.
The small churches generally have some serious stability issues going on and may not have a qualified leader.

My opinion on oversight is that it doesn't work unless they come out at least close to once monthly and more as needed. Seems like a bishop shouldn't oversee more than one extra church... but that likely doesn't always happen.
Just curious, on what would you base this thought? Is it something you see in Jesus' teachings or from personal observation? I have heard this sentiment before but I never quite got the reasoning behind it. :?:
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4574
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by Neto »

Peregrino wrote:
Soloist wrote:If the church is too small, like house church size thats not necessarily a problem, but I think that unless there is a qualified leader that the "small" church is willing to submit to as the bishop that they should have oversight from a local church bishop.
The small churches generally have some serious stability issues going on and may not have a qualified leader.

My opinion on oversight is that it doesn't work unless they come out at least close to once monthly and more as needed. Seems like a bishop shouldn't oversee more than one extra church... but that likely doesn't always happen.
Just curious, on what would you base this thought? Is it something you see in Jesus' teachings or from personal observation? I have heard this sentiment before but I never quite got the reasoning behind it. :?:
This thinking is so strong in this area (Holmes County) that the outreach group we & some others were working on getting started took a dive in the dust when none of our current ministers decided to come along. (I for one badly miscalculated how crucial this would be in the minds of those who had voiced an interest. Admittedly, this was also partly due to the fact that we were wanting to back peddle on about 5 years worth of change in the guidelines & music styles. We did have a couple of older ministers who would have helped out, but no one to take primary responsibility. I think more along the lines of brotherhood, so it blindsided me.)
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Once Again
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:38 am
Location: Oklahoma
Affiliation: church of Christ

Re: Too big, too small, or just right??

Post by Once Again »

appleman2006 wrote:
lesterb wrote:According to Malcolm Gladwell any group over 120 is to big for everyone to know each other. See his book The Tipping Point.
There was a time I would of totally disagreed with that. Now I am not so sure he is about right on with that number. I grew up in a church that at it's peak was at about 350. Almost 15 years ago we moved to a church that had about 60 in regular attendance. That has now grown to about 175 and even if it were not for the fact that we are pushing out the walls of the building almost in overcrowding I would still be in favour of splitting in half, a plan that we are actively pursuing. Having a building too full is also not conducive to welcoming newcomers although so far it sure does not seem to stop them from at least coming and checking us out. My fear is that we will split and then have the same problem again at both places in about 5 years.
You fear that the churches would grow so much that they would have to split again in 5 years? That sounds like a very good problem to have.
0 x
Post Reply