Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by Bootstrap »

We've had a long detour from the Swiss Brethren thread. I would like to come back to a topic that came up several times: some people seem to see a strong distinction between the descendants of Swiss Brethren and descendants of Dutch Mennonites that persists even today:
Neto wrote:If I need to distinguish between the two, I just try to always refer to the Swiss anabaptists as "Swiss Brethren", and to the others as "Dutch Mennonites". But I think that the differences between the two groups are greater now than they were then, so, as you say, hindsight.
Is that accurate? If so, what are the differences, and how clean-cut is the distinction? Or are we all more shaped by influences over the centuries in between and more modern Mennonite cultures? In my own background, we often heard the stories of the Swiss Brethren and sometimes looked at their writings but often looked at the writings of Menno Simons. The writings of the Hutterites were not often used. We did look at the Martyr's Mirror from time to time. Our confession of faith was the Mennonite Confession of Faith. What writings and stories have your fellowships focused on?

I thought some people were claiming that some of the groups most directly descended from the Swiss Brethren are the same groups that adopted the Dordrecht Confession, which was written by Dutch Mennonites. To me, this is an indication that these lines blur. Am I missing something?
Bootstrap wrote:According to GAMEO, Dordrecht was written by Dutch Mennonites, and was not accepted by the Swiss Mennonites. (This article agrees with what Hats Off shared, and expands on it a little.)

However, the descendants of the Swiss Mennonites in Pennsylvania did accept it, probably through the influence of Dutch Mennonites.

So if you want to be purist about Swiss Mennonite versus Dutch, the Dordrecht is probably not the confession you want to use. That would be Schleitheim.
Written in the first draft by Adriaan Cornelisz, elder of the Flemish Mennonite congregation in the Dutch city of Dordrecht, this confession of faith, containing 18 articles, was adopted April 21, 1632, and signed by 51 Flemish and Frisian Mennonite preachers as a basis of union. The official (Dutch) title reads: Voorstellinghe van de principale articulen onses algemeynen Christelijcken Geloofs, ghelijck de selve in onse Gemeynte doorgaens geleert ende beleeft worden. On Feb. 4, 1660, six preachers and seven deacons from Alsace, in a meeting held at Ohnenheim in Rappoltstein, adopted the Dordrecht Confession "as our own." Later it was adopted by the Mennonites in the Palatinate and North Germany; the Swiss Mennonites never accepted it, perhaps because it teaches shunning (Article 17) which only the Swiss Amish practiced, not the Swiss Mennonites. Probably through the influence of the Dutch Mennonites of Germantown, Pa., the Mennonites of southeastern Pennsylvania, of the Franconia and Lancaster Conferences (MC) adopted the Dordrecht Confession in 1725. The more conservative Mennonite bodies in North America, including the Mennonite Church (MC) prior to 1963, recognize it as their official articles of faith, but its personal acceptance is not required either for baptism or ordination. Historically this symbol has been much used as an instrument of catechetical instruction in preparation for baptism.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by Hats Off »

The most conservative of the groups descended from the Swiss Brethern use the Dortrecht Confession which as noted, is of Dutch origin. I don't know what the most conservative of the Dutch origin Mennonites use. The Martyr's Mirror is quite popular among Swiss Brethern descendants as are the writings of Menno Simons and Diedrich Philips. However, the Old Colony and other conservative Dutch (or Russian or Mexican) Mennonites are like strangers to us.
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by Neto »

Would it be accurate to say of the original Swiss Brethren, that until perhaps the development of the Amish, and a fair bit later for other Swiss Brethren groups, that they did not prescribe any particular dress styles? This is my impression, and it is also true of the Dutch Mennonites, even today, with the exception of the Old Colony groups that came out of the Soviet Union, after the fall of both the Russian Empire and the Russian Republic. In my own tradition (Mennonite Brethren), there never was a prescribed dress style, other than that white shirts were frowned on as prideful (light blue was preferred), and there were perhaps unwritten 'rules' about avoiding modern trends like changing hair color, and crew cuts on men, stuff like that.

If my impression of the early Swiss Brethren is correct, then the conservative among them have changed in the direction of a very prescribed lifestyle, including pretty exacting rules for both men's & women's dress & hair styles, while the conservative among the Dutch Mennonites have by and large held to a standard of modesty which has not chosen any particular dress or hair style. (It is true, however, at least in my now limited exposure to 'my people', that rear conservatism only survives in pockets of rural communities.)

Regarding who reads what, of the old documents:
For some reason, the Swiss Brethren leaders did not do much writing, or else little of it has been preserved, perhaps because their descendants did not value it? I do not know. I just know that after having read the Complete Writings of Menno Simons, I looked for early Swiss Brethren writings, and found nothing at all. I visited a very conservative Amish home in western PA, and through information they gave me, contacted an Amish bookstore here in Ohio. I asked for information regarding any writings by Jacob Amman, because to me, with my extremely limited knowledge of the Swiss Brethren, that meant 'Amish'. They sent me a small tract about 'Why We Wear the Beard' - that's it. When I came to Holmes County for the first time, several years later, and met Beachy Amish Mennonites for the first time, even the bishop in whose home that youth meeting was held knew very little of what Menno Simons had written, even on the biggest area of conflict between the DM & SB - the issue of divorce & remarriage after one party was persistently unfaithful. (They asked me specifically what we - MB's - believed about D & RM. Knowing that it was a big issue, and an area of difference, I answered that we taught it as represented in Menno Simons' writings. They had to ask ME what that was.) Since then, I often hear false statements about what Menno wrote or taught, generally cast in an unfavorable tone. I have met very few SB who think highly of Menno. Although I purchased the book "Handbook" by Dietrich Philips here in Holmes County, I have never heard any one mention it in conversation. Regarding Martyrs' Mirror, yes, it is a Dutch book, and while it is commonly referenced here in SB territory, I had perhaps only just heard of it in my own BM setting - I had certainly never seen one. (Maybe this is unusual, but my wife's former Amish parents, Beachy A.M. after she was 12, gave each of their children a copy of Martyrs' Mirror. My wife has never read much in it at all, and thinks it is incredible that I have read the entire volume.)
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
User avatar
ohio jones
Posts: 5222
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: undisclosed
Affiliation: Rosedale Network

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by ohio jones »

Regarding the Dordrecht Confession, the statement that 'the Swiss Mennonites never accepted it" is incomplete; perhaps J.C. Wenger was unaware of Golden Apples when he wrote that in 1956.

Published a decade after the Amish division, Section 5 of this book is a "Christian Confession of Faith of the Peace-Loving and Distinguished Christians Who are Called Mennonites" and is based on Dordrecht but with changes to reflect the Swiss Brethren interpretation and approach. There is an Article on the Holy Spirit (missing from Dordrecht), and expansions or rewordings of the Articles on baptism, the church, the Lord's supper, marriage, and repentance and restoration following the ban.

In my opinion, these revisions are an improvement to the Dordrecht Confession and should have been kept. However, through Amish and Dutch Mennonite influences in North America, the original version prevailed.
0 x
I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
Neto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by Neto »

ohio jones wrote:Regarding the Dordrecht Confession, the statement that 'the Swiss Mennonites never accepted it" is incomplete; perhaps J.C. Wenger was unaware of Golden Apples when he wrote that in 1956.

Published a decade after the Amish division, Section 5 of this book is a "Christian Confession of Faith of the Peace-Loving and Distinguished Christians Who are Called Mennonites" and is based on Dordrecht but with changes to reflect the Swiss Brethren interpretation and approach. There is an Article on the Holy Spirit (missing from Dordrecht), and expansions or rewordings of the Articles on baptism, the church, the Lord's supper, marriage, and repentance and restoration following the ban.

In my opinion, these revisions are an improvement to the Dordrecht Confession and should have been kept. However, through Amish and Dutch Mennonite influences in North America, the original version prevailed.
I may be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't there a discussion about this book on MD that questioned the dating of its authorship? But even if that date is established fact, I wonder if any Dutch Mennonites were ever made aware of its existence. If the split between the Amish and the other Swiss Brethren was around 1690 (is that correct?), then this book might have been written around 1700? If so, I wonder how much communication there was between the different groups during that era. My people would have been in Prussia at that time, and by that time they had switched to a very agrarian way of life, and may not have had very many educated people. Also, I wonder what language it was written in; if in Swiss German that might have also reduced it exposure among the Dutch Mennonites. I do not know - I'm just making conjectures as to why the Dutch Mennonites may not have responded to the book.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by Bootstrap »

Neto wrote:I may be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't there a discussion about this book on MD that questioned the dating of its authorship? But even if that date is established fact, I wonder if any Dutch Mennonites were ever made aware of its existence. If the split between the Amish and the other Swiss Brethren was around 1690 (is that correct?), then this book might have been written around 1700?
According to Christian Light Publishing:
Golden Apples in Silver Bowls served as one of the foundational books of the seventeenth-century Swiss Anabaptists. Published in 1702, it was a wide-ranging compilation of martyr testimonies, confessions of faith, prayers, instructions for singing, and devotionals intended to strengthen and comfort the church as she recovered from the painful Amish/Mennonite division.
This agrees with the GAMEO article: Güldene Aepffel in Silbern Schalen. Another surprise, for me at least, is that this came from the Reist group, not from the Amman group.

The 1745 edition - published in Pennsylvania - is available online for free here: https://books.google.com/books?id=KHMOAAAAQAAJ

Neto wrote:If so, I wonder how much communication there was between the different groups during that era. My people would have been in Prussia at that time, and by that time they had switched to a very agrarian way of life, and may not have had very many educated people. Also, I wonder what language it was written in; if in Swiss German that might have also reduced it exposure among the Dutch Mennonites. I do not know - I'm just making conjectures as to why the Dutch Mennonites may not have responded to the book.
This reads like very accessible German, similar to Luther's German. The style and language varies among the different writings contained in the collection, and I have not read it all, but my guess is that it's generally pretty readable. Of course, it's possible that some editor in Pennsylvania made it more readable, but the GAMEO article does not mention anything along those lines.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Neto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by Neto »

Is there any mention of this book (Golden Apples in Silver Bowls) in other works of that period, or is there any indication as to it having been adopted or endorsed by any body of congregations? (I don't mean to sound overly skeptical, I just want to know if it was possibly a 'lost book', or something expressing the opinion or view of one person or congregation, or a small group of congregations, as opposed to a majority of Swiss Brethren.)

But just to make sure that I was understood correctly, in the comment of mine with which you started this thread, I was referring to changes or developments over the past century or so, not intending to refer back to this more formative period. My supposition was that the SB & DM have, if anything, grown more different over these past centuries, rather than becoming more homogeneous. Menno Simons' great dream was to unite the anabaptist people around a central core of doctrine & behavioral expression of that doctrine. It is this which I think has become more diverse. In past threads (perhaps going back to on MD) a certain teacher was often mentioned as the leading Mennonite theologian of the 20th century, but I had never heard of him. I had also never heard of Daniel Kaufman, or his theology book. These people & books are completely outside my tradition. And we had theologians & probably books which the SB churches have probably never heard of. Culturally and linguistically we are different peoples. I recall making a comment once (when I was in Bible Institute) that "the zweibach is the symbol of Mennonite survival and culture", but the person to whom I said this responded with something like "What's a zweibach?!?" Just like making 'English people" feel welcome, we need to welcome one another by letting go of some of our focus on our own cultures. (It's fine to hold on to them culturally, but let's drop this tendency to make it part of our faith.)
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
lesterb
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:41 pm
Location: Alberta
Affiliation: Western Fellowship
Contact:

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by lesterb »

The author of this book is often considered pietistic in his leanings and the book hasn't really been received that well in traditional circles.

The Dordrecht confession was accepted by the Swiss Brethren earlier than the Amish division. But several articles weren't put into practice. This was the lever that Hans Amman tried to pull. "You Swiss say you follow the Dordrecht confession but you don't." This was his basis for excommunicating leaders and other members who disagreed with him.

The inclusion of shunning in the Dordrecht Confession and its omission in Golden Apples is probably the main reason for the disagreements of the two documents. It is still the biggest wall between the Amish and the Mennonites in a lot of areas.
0 x
KingdomBuilder
Posts: 1482
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:00 pm
Affiliation: church of Christ

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Great thread, Boot.

I have and read both the complete works of Menno Simon and Dirk Philips, and Ive tried to read up on Swiss vs Dutch differences some, but I end up getting very confused. Needless to say, it's of interest to me (for whatever reason...), and I'd like to learn more on it. :)
0 x
Ponder anew what the Almighty can do
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Swiss vs. Dutch, then and now

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote:The Dordrecht confession was accepted by the Swiss Brethren earlier than the Amish division. But several articles weren't put into practice. This was the lever that Hans Amman tried to pull. "You Swiss say you follow the Dordrecht confession but you don't." This was his basis for excommunicating leaders and other members who disagreed with him.

The inclusion of shunning in the Dordrecht Confession and its omission in Golden Apples is probably the main reason for the disagreements of the two documents. It is still the biggest wall between the Amish and the Mennonites in a lot of areas.
So shunning was practiced by the Dutch Mennonites but not the Swiss Brethren until the Amish split? And one of the main differences between the Swiss Brethren and the Dutch Mennonites was that the Dutch Mennonites shunned and the Swiss Brethren did not?

But who are the people who are proudest of being descended from Swiss Brethren rather than the Dutch? I thought that was the Amish and related groups that shun like the Dutch Mennonites did.

Or am I getting that wrong?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Post Reply