Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
justme
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by justme »

steve-in-kville wrote: I had four children that went through new members class. But the leadership refused to baptize any of them due to "concerns." Again, we found out much too late in the game that we just were not wanted.
sooo, it would appear to me, that-
baptism is not related to following Christ.
baptism is related to inclusion into a specific group of people.

maybe if the group doesn't know what baptism means, then they aren't as healthy of a group as a person might think.
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Josh
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Josh »

steve-in-kville wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:This thread is a bit discouraging...
I've been holding myself back from posting in this thread as I don't want to throw more fuel on the fire. But this is the stark naked reality of the outside looking in. I struggled with this a long time. Its like running a race not knowing where the finishing line is, or if there is one at all.

In our situation, it was really twisted, in a way that made me physically sick to my stomach. I had four children that went through new members class. But the leadership refused to baptize any of them due to "concerns." Again, we found out much too late in the game that we just were not wanted.
Did you consider goIng to sister churches’ leadership, or was this church independent?
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Mrs.Nisly
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

One thing I wish people who want to join a Conservative Mennonite church would remember is that the very thing that attracts them to the church is the very thing that will make it difficult to fit in.

Conservative Mennonite churches are more than a "church". It is a cultural community. If you are attracted to the fact that they have resisted the societial culture of the modern world, you need to understand that they haven't merely resisted it, they have developed an alternate culture. This culture has been formed over generations of people. Genetically most of this culture shares the same ancestors. In each generation many people have left the culture and assimilated into the broader culture,but the ones who stay continue to shape the culture.

Even though you have come to value the same things this culture values, you have arrived there by resisting your culture. They value these things because they have embraced their culture.

The mentality that either of you approach your shared values can't be overstated.
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Hats Off
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Hats Off »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:One thing I wish people who want to join a Conservative Mennonite church would remember is that the very thing that attracts them to the church is the very thing that will make it difficult to fit in.

Conservative Mennonite churches are more than a "church". It is a cultural community. If you are attracted to the fact that they have resisted the societial culture of the modern world, you need to understand that they haven't merely resisted it, they have developed an alternate culture. This culture has been formed over generations of people. Genetically most of this culture shares the same ancestors. In each generation many people have left the culture and assimilated into the broader culture,but the ones who stay continue to shape the culture.

Even though you have come to value the same things this culture values, you have arrived there by resisting your culture. They value these things because they have embraced their culture.

The mentality that either of you approach your shared values can't be overstated.
The sentence underlined above are almost exactly the words one NMB couple expressed to us when they discontinued with us. They said that if we would change to accommodate them, we would be destroying the very thing that attracted them in the first place. The husband was in his second marriage so we hoped that they would continue coming without membership for themselves for the sake of their large family. Believe me, there was hurting when they left!
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Wade
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Wade »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:One thing I wish people who want to join a Conservative Mennonite church would remember is that the very thing that attracts them to the church is the very thing that will make it difficult to fit in.

Conservative Mennonite churches are more than a "church". It is a cultural community. If you are attracted to the fact that they have resisted the societial culture of the modern world, you need to understand that they haven't merely resisted it, they have developed an alternate culture. This culture has been formed over generations of people. Genetically most of this culture shares the same ancestors. In each generation many people have left the culture and assimilated into the broader culture,but the ones who stay continue to shape the culture.

Even though you have come to value the same things this culture values, you have arrived there by resisting your culture. They value these things because they have embraced their culture.

The mentality that either of you approach your shared values can't be overstated.
I agree with most of this but arriving because we have resisted our own culture could be a very poor generalization.
We heard about Mennonites before we ever met any and because the books we read fit with things we found in scripture and were ourselves embracing those things because of a desire to follow Christ and allowing the scriptures and praying for the Holy Spirit to guide our way of life.
The apprentice I had at that time that has Mennonite ancestors and cousins that still are, although himself being very pagan, would try to convince me of evolution often. We would talk and finally in a fuss one time he told me that I frustrated him so much because I wasn't running from evil but rather running to good.
I don't really know other new comers personally depending on ones definition but I thought this was more the reality...
If it was about trying to conform to a culture and less about Christ, it would be easy to shut ones mouth and just conform.
I mean this in the kindest way: I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks could be that when one reads about Mennonites and then they finally do meet some they soon fine out that it isn't like what one reads - because all the problems and inner church turmoil are not talked about in the books we read. We were totally unprepared for all the major ongoing issues that had nothing to do with us, but rather we just added much more workload to the church in there efforts to welcome and minister to us. They refused when we offered help for the most part...?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Bootstrap »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:One thing I wish people who want to join a Conservative Mennonite church would remember is that the very thing that attracts them to the church is the very thing that will make it difficult to fit in.

Conservative Mennonite churches are more than a "church". It is a cultural community. If you are attracted to the fact that they have resisted the societal culture of the modern world, you need to understand that they haven't merely resisted it, they have developed an alternate culture. This culture has been formed over generations of people. Genetically most of this culture shares the same ancestors. In each generation many people have left the culture and assimilated into the broader culture, but the ones who stay continue to shape the culture.

Even though you have come to value the same things this culture values, you have arrived there by resisting your culture. They value these things because they have embraced their culture.

The mentality that either of you approach your shared values can't be overstated.
This is really very well said.

And for what it's worth, this is also the reason that I respect conservative Mennonites a great deal, but do not think I would ever try to join them. I do think we share the same faith, but I do not think we share the same culture, and it is their commitment to the faith that I really admire. I have lived in several cultures, and I know how deep culture runs.

I also respect those who do feel called to join this culture, but I do not think I am one of them.
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Mrs.Nisly
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

Hats Off wrote:
Mrs.Nisly wrote:One thing I wish people who want to join a Conservative Mennonite church would remember is that the very thing that attracts them to the church is the very thing that will make it difficult to fit in.

Conservative Mennonite churches are more than a "church". It is a cultural community. If you are attracted to the fact that they have resisted the societial culture of the modern world, you need to understand that they haven't merely resisted it, they have developed an alternate culture. This culture has been formed over generations of people. Genetically most of this culture shares the same ancestors. In each generation many people have left the culture and assimilated into the broader culture,but the ones who stay continue to shape the culture.

Even though you have come to value the same things this culture values, you have arrived there by resisting your culture. They value these things because they have embraced their culture.


The mentality that either of you approach your shared values can't be overstated.
The sentence underlined above are almost exactly the words one NMB couple expressed to us when they discontinued with us. They said that if we would change to accommodate them, we would be destroying the very thing that attracted them in the first place. The husband was in his second marriage so we hoped that they would continue coming without membership for themselves for the sake of their large family. Believe me, there was hurting when they left!
I don't think these differences are impossible to overcome, but just acknowledging them and working toward mutual understanding could maybe be a start.

Generally speaking, I think the more traditional a church is the harder it is, but not necessarily. I think it makes mutual understanding easier if people from the Conservative Mennonite culture have had significant exposure to "your" culture through higher education, or intentional missions and discipleship training and choose to come back to their traditional Mennonite church.
In a sense they are doing what you are doing, rejecting the "world" (their culture) in order to choose it intentionally.

There is significant risk for traditional churches to allow this. I suppose the track record is not very good that people come back and intentionally choose their conservative culture.

I think the best thing a NMB could do is think long and hard about why they wish to join a traditional Mennonite church like this. I think the best reason a NMB person could have for joining a traditional Mennonite church is for their children's sake.
Culture is first cultivated in the home, but very quickly it is cultivated in the context of a community. When a Christian culture and values are reflected in the community in which a child grows up, the culture is simply absorbed. If your child grows up and marries someone in the culture, your grandchildren will not know any difference. The genetic difference will just be a new variation of the Mennonite gene pool. This is nothing new. In my personal ancestry there are at least two or three NMB or more specifically, non-Amish gene additions. One as close as my great grand father. He was Lutheran and married an Amish girl. He was always "different" in the community where they lived. But I don't think anyone would ever dispute that his children, including my grandfather, was ever anything but Amish.

I think a good way to assimilate to a traditional Mennonite culture is to simply start building relationships with them. Start attending church. Visit them. If they allow your children to attend their school, then send your children. But make sure your children are dressed like the other children. This is the biggest difference children recognize. Don't pressure them to accept you. You could go a long time, years even, just living in the community, absorbing the community building a shared history. Who knows, maybe on a day when you least expect it, a conversation will come up about church membership. Are you sure you want to go to the next level of commitment? Maybe, maybe not.

This goes the other way too. My sister in law, who has lived nearly all of their married life in a non-Mennonite culture as missionaries, once told me that it's like she and her husband are the color yellow. They will always be yellow. The culture they live in is blue. It will always be blue. Their children are green. That was a few years ago then their children were younger and as of today, none of their children are plain, although the parents are technically plain. (Clothing is only one marker of culture, but an obvious one.)
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Wade
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Wade »

Wade wrote:
Mrs.Nisly wrote:One thing I wish people who want to join a Conservative Mennonite church would remember is that the very thing that attracts them to the church is the very thing that will make it difficult to fit in.

Conservative Mennonite churches are more than a "church". It is a cultural community. If you are attracted to the fact that they have resisted the societial culture of the modern world, you need to understand that they haven't merely resisted it, they have developed an alternate culture. This culture has been formed over generations of people. Genetically most of this culture shares the same ancestors. In each generation many people have left the culture and assimilated into the broader culture,but the ones who stay continue to shape the culture.

Even though you have come to value the same things this culture values, you have arrived there by resisting your culture. They value these things because they have embraced their culture.

The mentality that either of you approach your shared values can't be overstated.
If it was about trying to conform to a culture and less about Christ, it would be easy to just conform
I forgot to state that fitting into culture takes money. So when one can't keep up with Miller's, it isn't going to work. Mennonite culture is expensive! We have never been able to fit into that...
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Mrs.Nisly
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

Wade wrote:
Mrs.Nisly wrote:One thing I wish people who want to join a Conservative Mennonite church would remember is that the very thing that attracts them to the church is the very thing that will make it difficult to fit in.

Conservative Mennonite churches are more than a "church". It is a cultural community. If you are attracted to the fact that they have resisted the societial culture of the modern world, you need to understand that they haven't merely resisted it, they have developed an alternate culture. This culture has been formed over generations of people. Genetically most of this culture shares the same ancestors. In each generation many people have left the culture and assimilated into the broader culture,but the ones who stay continue to shape the culture.

Even though you have come to value the same things this culture values, you have arrived there by resisting your culture. They value these things because they have embraced their culture.

The mentality that either of you approach your shared values can't be overstated.
I agree with most of this but arriving because we have resisted our own culture could be a very poor generalization.
We heard about Mennonites before we ever met any and because the books we read fit with things we found in scripture and were ourselves embracing those things because of a desire to follow Christ and allowing the scriptures and praying for the Holy Spirit to guide our way of life.
The apprentice I had at that time that has Mennonite ancestors and cousins that still are, although himself being very pagan, would try to convince me of evolution often. We would talk and finally in a fuss one time he told me that I frustrated him so much because I wasn't running from evil but rather running to good.
I don't really know other new comers personally depending on ones definition but I thought this was more the reality...
If it was about trying to conform to a culture and less about Christ, it would be easy to shut ones mouth and just conform.
I mean this in the kindest way: I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks could be that when one reads about Mennonites and then they finally do meet some they soon fine out that it isn't like what one reads - because all the problems and inner church turmoil are not talked about in the books we read. We were totally unprepared for all the major ongoing issues that had nothing to do with us, but rather we just added much more workload to the church in there efforts to welcome and minister to us. They refused when we offered help for the most part...?
Wade, I'm not sure you understand what I mean by culture.
Here is a definition that I think is useful.
The culture of a group of people is the traditions and beliefs that they practice in their daily lives.
It is the way a person lives out their faith, either their Christian faith, secular faith, Islamic faith, whatever. Children are discipled in a given culture. It is impossible not to.
A traditional Mennonite culture has a certain set of traditions and beliefs in which it lives out its Christian faith.
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Mrs.Nisly
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

Wade wrote:
Wade wrote:
Mrs.Nisly wrote:One thing I wish people who want to join a Conservative Mennonite church would remember is that the very thing that attracts them to the church is the very thing that will make it difficult to fit in.

Conservative Mennonite churches are more than a "church". It is a cultural community. If you are attracted to the fact that they have resisted the societial culture of the modern world, you need to understand that they haven't merely resisted it, they have developed an alternate culture. This culture has been formed over generations of people. Genetically most of this culture shares the same ancestors. In each generation many people have left the culture and assimilated into the broader culture,but the ones who stay continue to shape the culture.

Even though you have come to value the same things this culture values, you have arrived there by resisting your culture. They value these things because they have embraced their culture.

The mentality that either of you approach your shared values can't be overstated.
If it was about trying to conform to a culture and less about Christ, it would be easy to just conform
I forgot to state that fitting into culture takes money. So when one can't keep up with Miller's, it isn't going to work. Mennonite culture is expensive! We have never been able to fit into that...
Then don't try to live out your practices and beliefs in a Mennonite context if you think it's too expensive. There are probably other cultures that fit what you believe is following Christ better for you.
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