Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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steve-in-kville
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by steve-in-kville »

Josh wrote: My advice: don’t spend time thinking about a place that had no plans to accept you. Focus on places where people actually live Christ’s gospel instead.
Reminds me of this:
"Bitterness is like drinking poison expecting someone else to die."
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Valerie
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Valerie »

YorkandAdams wrote:
Valerie wrote:Just realizing the dilema- it must be very discouraging- and then a lot of seekers don't stay, right? It's probably recognized that time is invested in folks and they move on anyways- Spiritual time is never lost- but the other secondary things?
When I first started attending, I questioned several people on the history of seekers within the church. I did this to find out why there was no one from a NMB in attendance. I got a mix of answers from church members, but the majority said one of two things. Seekers told them that they never "fit in/felt included", or they felt that the church was "not conservative enough". I will focus on the former for the first section.

From the churches perspective, they felt they were more than accommodating to outsiders. Inviting them to church events, sunday lunches, ministry spending time with them, exc. The problem is that this "special treatment" eventually goes away. After several months, most of the church views you as "one of them" and stops treating seekers "special". That’s when the problem starts to show up. Seekers have been given special attention for months straight and then it just drops off. The euphoria of the "Honeymoon Phase" is wearing off and you are left with "normal" life. Most people react similar to this feeling, and the problem is that it is rarely good. I experienced this, and I will be honest it did temporarily have a similar effect on me. The ministry at my church has told me that because of their history, when I came in they tried to tone that stuff back. Not necessarily on the time spent with the ministry, but the "special treatment" that was given previously to seekers was reeled in quite a bit. Granted, being able to attend youth events with people around my age significantly helped out with this feeling of inclusion, but some of the older seekers could easily become discouraged without that reinforcement.

To get back to your original comment, and to address the second part of my statement above, there is a significant worry that most seekers will not stay. The "success" rate is extremely low among conservative Mennonite churches in general. My church has a long history of men who come in only to leave shortly after (within a year or two). They usually followed one of two paths. Either they tried the church and then simply gave up (not fitting in), or they went to a more conservative church, and often continued down that path all the way through to horse and buggy. Yes, I am completely serious, the ministry in my church listed several examples. When I first came into my church, I sat down with the bishop and he pretty much laid everything out on the table for me. He told me that the church had a 0% "success" rate with men staying. There was no one currently in the church like me. Due to the long history of seekers leaving, the church was often left disappointed and frustrated. They "invested" time into helping the person make the transition only for them to leave shortly after. A lot of friendships were simply abandoned and people were often left "hurt".

I will be honest, when we first met it felt like he was begging me NOT to come to their church. It felt like he didn't want to deal with the problems and challenges that come with having a seeker. The church had been "hurt" by a seeker leaving fairly recently, and he was not sure if the church could handle another disappointment that big in the near future. I completely understand where he is coming from now, but at the time I had a hard time fathoming a church not wanting to welcome anyone who wanted to come to their church. Thankfully I kept attending and things have worked out fairly well. Only god knows where I will be in a few years, but I don’t see myself going horse and buggy any time soon. :lol:
I have heard so many testimonies through the years, and read the struggles of those who wish to join- we have had them on this discussion forum- even those who threatened to take their life if they couldn't become a member, yet were still rejected to membership- (of course there were many issues in that particular situation that needed a lot of ministering, and was an exceptional case) but I appreciate, I think we all do, that those of you out there who have really tried and been met with a defeated discouragement, still persevere. Also that you feel accepted enough 'here' to be able to honestly share your story and heart- some of that sharing is important to help everyone- seekers and members.
I wonder- if your Bishop was out of 'kindness' discouraging you because if they had a 0% success rate for seekers staying, perhaps he was trying to save you the heartaches he knew would most likely come- both sides. Lester posted about how he and they (MB) form friendships that are abandoned by seekers who leave. It has to be discouraging for both sides.

You are not alone, there are Anabaptist 'born' friends I've had who have gone through a LOT to fit in their own communities, mostly Amish of course is who I've known in this way- one of my friends left AMish finally, and read a book called "Toxic Faith" that he promoted for people who have been hurt by church situations which could have led them to give up on the faith altogether.

God bless you as you persevere in the faith- I have to consider that there is a very strong tie in the Anabaptist born people with a heritage that binds them together- from their beginning- that particular tie, no one can really 'tap into'- and it seems there is room to consider that if we move our faith from the foundation of Jesus Christ, it is possible that we form the tie that binds based on something that perhaps we shouldn't, even if it is understandable how and why it happens.
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YorkandAdams
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by YorkandAdams »

Valerie wrote: I have heard so many testimonies through the years, and read the struggles of those who wish to join- we have had them on this discussion forum- even those who threatened to take their life if they couldn't become a member, yet were still rejected to membership- (of course there were many issues in that particular situation that needed a lot of ministering, and was an exceptional case) but I appreciate, I think we all do, that those of you out there who have really tried and been met with a defeated discouragement, still persevere. Also that you feel accepted enough 'here' to be able to honestly share your story and heart- some of that sharing is important to help everyone- seekers and members.
I wonder- if your Bishop was out of 'kindness' discouraging you because if they had a 0% success rate for seekers staying, perhaps he was trying to save you the heartaches he knew would most likely come- both sides. Lester posted about how he and they (MB) form friendships that are abandoned by seekers who leave. It has to be discouraging for both sides.
Having a church that has had seekers previously can be a blessing. The ministry knows exactly what struggles I am going to face. They HAVE learned from their mistakes and want to do better. The only way they are going to improve is by trying. The flip side to this is that the church has the mindset that it will "loose" any seeker that comes in. The church has no "success stories" or "trophies" as some people call us.

The best analogy that I have is to compare it to a sports team. Imagine practicing and working out consistently for years and years never to win the championship. Sometimes you make it through the playoffs, winning small victories along the way, but you never get the "trophy". Not having someone from the "outside" is one thing that conservative Mennonite churches don’t like admitting. In fact, the feeling of being “ashamed” has come up multiple times. Sure, a church in my bracket might experience growth through the "deserters" leaving the ultra-conservative churches, but they failed at "the great commission". The growth in my church is almost exclusively from "deserters" leaving the ultra-conservatives ranks in our area. Upstream is virtually non-existent.

When a church "invests" in a seeker, it really is a collective effort. The amount of time I have spent with the church since I came in far outweighs the time I have spent with any friends and family combined. Nowhere close to everyone in the church puts forth the effort, but a large enough number have for me to feel at home. That is why I completely get where Lester is coming from with the abandoned relationships. When I came in, the ministry was upfront about seekers not staying, but they did not get into the specific details surrounding their exits. I have been able to pull out quite a bit since then and have found that some of the experiences were borderline traumatic for the church. Friendships abandoned, nasty words exchanged, and feelings left hurt.

However, one thing I would like to convey to conservative Mennonite churches is that they should encourage seekers to feel around before they commit to a church. Most of us came in with very little knowledge of different denominations, and it will take some time for us to feel our way around. The first church we regularly attend might not be the end destination. While that is hard for most churches to hear, it is the truth. I am still relatively new on this journey and am trying to experience the different groups to find exactly where God wants me to be. Attending events outside my denomination/church including singings, mission trips, and bible schools might be looked at as disloyal from my churches perspective, but at the end of the day this is my journey, not theirs.
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lesterb
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by lesterb »

I always tell people to take their time. Rent a house instead of buying so that you aren't tied in in case you change your mind. Take time in changing your wardrobe. Get to know people. Etc.

Often it doesn't work. They want to fit in. They feel God directed them here so they want to show their commitment.

I completely get it. But I've seen it all collapse so often that I'd like to make it easier for them. And I don't want to make it look like I'm pressuring them. I want them to decide what they will do. Whether they stay or leave I want to support them and I'd like to stay friends.

But tòo often it doesn't work. And I don't know why.
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Josh
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Josh »

I’ve invested a lot of time, money, and emotions in seekers. Some of whom are gone. Some went back to evangelical Protestant ways - others don’t even pretend to follow Christ at all.

But the investment, for me, is worth it. It’s my life long mission to share the gospel with every one I can. And I plan to keep doing this the rest of my life. If just 1% stay - that is worth it - although I will ask myself: did I do things to drive away the other 99%? Could I get it up to 2%?

It helps to be part of a church where most other people seem on a similar mission and where the ministry and brothers who are leaders have their eye on people who don’t seem interested in that mission.
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Soloist
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Soloist »

I can't say that the church we are attending has made it easy for us on their standards... Some of them they are unwilling to compromise on. Contrary to being upset by this, I feel like its good to hold to beliefs even though it may cost seekers.
The worst example of what is horrid is having a bishop say something along the line of "the Jews made some compromises with the Gentiles resulting in the 4 laws placed on them... but for example if (my name here) doesn't like the plain coat, don't expect us to change for you" :laugh

Thankfully I know him by this point and I doubt very much he even realized how that came across.

The kindness we have been shown is truly a blessing... we still struggle with the standards being legalism... but we came to them looking for something true and though it might have its wrinkles, its got some serious claims for us to call it home. We are moving slowly and haven't decided anything. Some CM's get quite sad seeing their own leave that having a seeker come gives them hope and validity in what they have.

I know the odds are not good for seekers, I'm hoping to be more stable then most, but only time will tell. As far as it goes, seems like the two courses people chose is atheism or a strong cling to individualism that ruins their fellowship. I've really been looking into church history as much as possible to learn and part of that is seeing how even the "big" name seekers aren't really stable either but they regret not being stable.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

YorkandAdams wrote:
However, one thing I would like to convey to conservative Mennonite churches is that they should encourage seekers to feel around before they commit to a church. Most of us came in with very little knowledge of different denominations, and it will take some time for us to feel our way around. The first church we regularly attend might not be the end destination. While that is hard for most churches to hear, it is the truth. I am still relatively new on this journey and am trying to experience the different groups to find exactly where God wants me to be. Attending events outside my denomination/church including singings, mission trips, and bible schools might be looked at as disloyal from my churches perspective, but at the end of the day this is my journey, not theirs.
Yeah, but when there is only one church in town..........

Seriously, I have been taken aside a time or two. IF you are willing to learn, make adjustments, and try again, you will most likely get there. Ask lots of questions, and try to take the answers to heart. Be ready to apologize when it is appropriate. Look around to see where you can help, especially if it is cleaning up after events. You will learn.

Sometimes we are even able to fly under the radar screen if we so choose. Try to think up an interesting answer to the "Mennonite Game." My favorite when they ask about a particular person I know- "We think we are related, somehow, but to figure it out, we would have to go back to the old country, but we have not made the trip yet."

J.M.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by KingdomBuilder »

This thread is a bit discouraging...
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Wade
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by Wade »

KingdomBuilder wrote:This thread is a bit discouraging...
Let it be an opportunity to be aware, so you can better prepare and be a blessing.
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steve-in-kville
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Re: Becoming Conservative Mennonite

Post by steve-in-kville »

KingdomBuilder wrote:This thread is a bit discouraging...
I've been holding myself back from posting in this thread as I don't want to throw more fuel on the fire. But this is the stark naked reality of the outside looking in. I struggled with this a long time. Its like running a race not knowing where the finishing line is, or if there is one at all.

In our situation, it was really twisted, in a way that made me physically sick to my stomach. I had four children that went through new members class. But the leadership refused to baptize any of them due to "concerns." Again, we found out much too late in the game that we just were not wanted.
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