MaxPC wrote:When I mentioned the common theological ground I find in those two documents, I read those documents with an eye to the statements of faith rather than that one impassioned statement of the Schleitheim: the statements on Jesus is our Savior; the Trinity; Matrimony; the Coming of Christ; Resurrection and Last Judgment, and several others share common interpretations our own and make up much of our Deposit of Faith (Core Dogma).
The prime article of Schleitheim is Baptism, which you do not include in your list of common theological ground; also missing is The Sword. Baptism of believers and nonresistance are core doctrines of Anabaptism; may I take by your omitting these articles that Plain Catholics do not share these doctrinal positions?
Re Baptism: there is nothing in our Catechism that mandates infant baptism. It's more a custom than a Tradition in Catholic understanding.
Re the Sword, kindly note what I said in my answer to Wayne's query: "Even as I write this, the Vatican is re-examining the "just war" stance it has held previously with an eye to eliminating it."
Regarding baptism, that is quite interesting, and something I've never heard before from a Catholic. So which is the custom of Plain Catholics - infant or adult baptism?
Regarding the Sword, I'm not referring the the just war theory, but to the use of the sword generally. Are you saying that the Vatican is re-examining the use of the sword in general, or simply re-examining the just war theory? Because, as I am sure you know, Anabaptists are not in opposition to merely a particular theory of war, but to war generally.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
Hats Off wrote:Max, was Catherine De Hueck Doherty involved in the Plain Catholic charism? i believe she was from our area.
No, she wasn't, HatsOff. She was about communal living. We're individual families on farms.
Sudsy wrote:Wayne, I will really be shocked if any of the aforementioned questions are answered but I wouldn't mind looking at these confessions out of curiosity. Do you know of a link(s) to these for easy reading ?
I found the Bible Views copies of the Schleitheim and the Dordrecht Confessions very easy to use and they're from a trusted translation. Schleitheim Dordrecht
Ya got me there Max, good replies. Thanks for these two links which is really what I was looking for. Will take some time today to look at them closer.
mike wrote:
Regarding baptism, that is quite interesting, and something I've never heard before from a Catholic. So which is the custom of Plain Catholics - infant or adult baptism?
Regarding the Sword, I'm not referring the the just war theory, but to the use of the sword generally. Are you saying that the Vatican is re-examining the use of the sword in general, or simply re-examining the just war theory? Because, as I am sure you know, Anabaptists are not in opposition to merely a particular theory of war, but to war generally.
This may be clear as mud or it may be confusing; hopefully neither.
Re Baptism Mike, Plain Catholics follow the Catechism. We leave it up to the individual family to participate when they are ready. Our tri-partite Rite of Initiation to the Faith consists of 3 Sacraments: Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation. It occurs over a wide range of ages. Whereas the Anabaptist rite of initiation to the fellowship involves Baptism only (if I remember correctly). We have so many different ethnic cultures in our Church that our initiation rites will vary in age ranges from one region or country to the next. In the Plain Catholic charism we have families from different ethnicities because of that diversity. The Catechism is universal to our faith. Charisms are expressions of that faith. Baptism is one part of the overall great teaching of Christ in Catholic World.
Re the sword: I cannot predict where the Vatican discussion will lead. These things take prayer, discernment and many discussions. Military service is not mandated in our Church. It's not a part of our Deposit of Faith. There are Catholics who do serve in the military and there are those who do not. Again much of that stems from the cultural diversity in the larger fold.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35 Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
MaxPC wrote:This may be clear as mud or it may be confusing; hopefully neither.
Re Baptism Mike, Plain Catholics follow the Catechism. We leave it up to the individual family to participate when they are ready. Our tri-partite Rite of Initiation to the Faith consists of 3 Sacraments: Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation. It occurs over a wide range of ages. Whereas the Anabaptist rite of initiation to the fellowship involves Baptism only (if I remember correctly). We have so many different ethnic cultures in our Church that our initiation rites will vary in age ranges from one region or country to the next. In the Plain Catholic charism we have families from different ethnicities because of that diversity. The Catechism is universal to our faith. Charisms are expressions of that faith. Baptism is one part of the overall great teaching of Christ in Catholic World.
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. the Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.
mike wrote:
Regarding baptism, that is quite interesting, and something I've never heard before from a Catholic. So which is the custom of Plain Catholics - infant or adult baptism?
Re Baptism Mike, Plain Catholics follow the Catechism. We leave it up to the individual family to participate when they are ready. Our tri-partite Rite of Initiation to the Faith consists of 3 Sacraments: Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation. It occurs over a wide range of ages. Whereas the Anabaptist rite of initiation to the fellowship involves Baptism only (if I remember correctly). We have so many different ethnic cultures in our Church that our initiation rites will vary in age ranges from one region or country to the next. In the Plain Catholic charism we have families from different ethnicities because of that diversity. The Catechism is universal to our faith. Charisms are expressions of that faith. Baptism is one part of the overall great teaching of Christ in Catholic World.
I'm surprised to see you, someone who is familiar with canon law, make these statements.
Canon 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.
If your group leaves it up to the individual family to participate when they are ready then your group is schismatic and in violation of canon law being more baptistic than Roman in your understanding of the meaning of Baptism. If, as you suggest, Rome allows families to decide, them Felix Manz was drowned (I suppose) due to a slight misunderstanding of canon law for refusing to have his infant child baptized.
MaxPC wrote:This may be clear as mud or it may be confusing; hopefully neither.
Re Baptism Mike, Plain Catholics follow the Catechism. We leave it up to the individual family to participate when they are ready. Our tri-partite Rite of Initiation to the Faith consists of 3 Sacraments: Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation. It occurs over a wide range of ages. Whereas the Anabaptist rite of initiation to the fellowship involves Baptism only (if I remember correctly). We have so many different ethnic cultures in our Church that our initiation rites will vary in age ranges from one region or country to the next. In the Plain Catholic charism we have families from different ethnicities because of that diversity. The Catechism is universal to our faith. Charisms are expressions of that faith. Baptism is one part of the overall great teaching of Christ in Catholic World.
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. the Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.
Can you explain?
Those paragraphs are just one small part of the teaching. When you read through the entire section of the COCL there are also instructions for the baptism of adults and aborted fetuses. It is not mandated on pain of sin but part of a larger teaching on Baptism. In reality, many parents in several cultures delay water baptism for a variety of reasons and can do so without penalty or penance. Some have delayed it until the teens. The reasons are too many to list but suffice to say, the Church prefers to err on the side of compassion in these cases. Plain Catholics are sometimes located so far from a priest and parish, they have to delay until one can be reached. The multiple guidelines regarding water baptism are addressed in several different volumes, not just single paragraph excerpts. Is it still mud?
Last edited by MaxPC on Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35 Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Canon 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.
If your group leaves it up to the individual family to participate when they are ready then your group is schismatic and in violation of canon law being more baptistic than Roman in your understanding of the meaning of Baptism. If, as you suggest, Rome allows families to decide, them Felix Manz was drowned (I suppose) due to a slight misunderstanding of canon law for refusing to have his infant child baptized.
Obliged is pretty clear. If it is obligatory, it is not optional, and not just a guideline. And Canon Law is binding.
And of course, the "sin" of the Anabaptists was baptizing someone as an adult who had already been baptized as an infant:
Can. 845 §1. Since the sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and orders imprint a character, they cannot be repeated.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
MaxPC wrote:Those paragraphs are just one small part of the teaching. When you read through the entire section of the COCL there are also instructions for the baptism of adults and aborted fetuses.
True, but this does not erase the obligation of parents to baptize infants, it merely provides a way for adults to be baptized if their parents did not do so.
Canon Law and the Catechism both clearly say that baptizing infants is obligator, and adults validly baptized as infants must not be baptized again. Reading the entire teaching on these matters from both sources makes this very clear.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
mike wrote:Regarding the Sword, I'm not referring the the just war theory, but to the use of the sword generally. Are you saying that the Vatican is re-examining the use of the sword in general, or simply re-examining the just war theory? Because, as I am sure you know, Anabaptists are not in opposition to merely a particular theory of war, but to war generally.
Under Pope Francis, the Catholic Church does seem to be reexamining the just war theory. See, for instance, this.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
See my answer: 
Thanks for these two links which is really what I was looking for. Will take some time today to look at them closer.
