Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:14 pm
How long does one live on a Diet of Worms?
i feel confident Wayne, the OP, would agree.JayP:
Catholic Anabaptist is an oxymoron.
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Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 7:01 pm
Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:54 pm
Indefinitely, I would think; they have a fine selection of restaurants there. Everything from Italian to Greek to Chinese to Irish, along with KFC and McDs. Traditional German too, of course. Not to mention Aldi, Lidl, and Rewe.
Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:23 pm
The REWE in Charlottenburg Berlin is a must stop, great cafeteria. Worms you can keep, unless you want a Lutherbible, at which case you are in luck. Air in all, a forgettable town.ohio jones wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:54 pmIndefinitely, I would think; they have a fine selection of restaurants there. Everything from Italian to Greek to Chinese to Irish, along with KFC and McDs. Traditional German too, of course. Not to mention Aldi, Lidl, and Rewe.
Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 4:03 pm
Bumping this thread. Ken just started another thread on a closely related topic. A lot of the same questions have been asked in this thread.
Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 4:27 pm
Ken didn't start that thread. Josh asked the question in another thread, which started a bunny trail that was split off. In order to make sense, the split needed to start with Max's post that Josh was replying to, which means that Max is shown as the originator of the thread. 
Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 4:53 pm
Could you please diagram that sentence?ohio jones wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 4:27 pm
Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:29 am
The question posed here is really open ended, because the first task is then to define the terms.
Using the etymological definition of the terms here, one could say that IF "Plain Catholics" practice baptism upon personal faith, then they are 'Anabaptists'. Then, using the same approach to the meaning of the word "Catholic", we might as well ask if "Plain Mennonites" (or any other Christian group) are "Catholics". And the answer, in consideration of the same basic requirement, is yes, because "catholic" means "universal", "referring to the whole". But now I've worked myself into theological quicksand, where I'm implying that baptism is necessary for salvation. So really, this is all a question for God to answer, because He is the only one who can see the attitude and condition of the inner-most person.
Utilizing the traditional in-group definition of the word 'anabaptist', and then asking if the Amish are 'anabaptists', one must concede that some are, and some aren't. (Some are not because they hold to a position on baptism that only requires a "right confession", one that recognizes Jesus the Christ as the One through whom salvation may be received, where as the traditional stance of "the anabaptists" is that baptism should be undertaken upon the basis of a PERSONAL confession of faith in Jesus as the Savior.)
And, while we are at it, we might also reply in the same manner to the question of whether the Amish are "Catholic". That is, "some are, and some aren't. Some Catholics are also neither 'anabaptist' nor 'catholic'. Some self-proclaimed Mennonites are also not "catholic". And Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.) The answer to this question, however, lies on a different foundation - not on what kind baptism was accepted, or even if it was only a theological confession or a personal confession, but upon a living faith, which in essence is obedience, obedience to the command to "Believe on the NAME of Jesus, the Christ, the only Way of salvation.
Using the etymological definition of the terms here, one could say that IF "Plain Catholics" practice baptism upon personal faith, then they are 'Anabaptists'. Then, using the same approach to the meaning of the word "Catholic", we might as well ask if "Plain Mennonites" (or any other Christian group) are "Catholics". And the answer, in consideration of the same basic requirement, is yes, because "catholic" means "universal", "referring to the whole". But now I've worked myself into theological quicksand, where I'm implying that baptism is necessary for salvation. So really, this is all a question for God to answer, because He is the only one who can see the attitude and condition of the inner-most person.
Utilizing the traditional in-group definition of the word 'anabaptist', and then asking if the Amish are 'anabaptists', one must concede that some are, and some aren't. (Some are not because they hold to a position on baptism that only requires a "right confession", one that recognizes Jesus the Christ as the One through whom salvation may be received, where as the traditional stance of "the anabaptists" is that baptism should be undertaken upon the basis of a PERSONAL confession of faith in Jesus as the Savior.)
And, while we are at it, we might also reply in the same manner to the question of whether the Amish are "Catholic". That is, "some are, and some aren't. Some Catholics are also neither 'anabaptist' nor 'catholic'. Some self-proclaimed Mennonites are also not "catholic". And Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.) The answer to this question, however, lies on a different foundation - not on what kind baptism was accepted, or even if it was only a theological confession or a personal confession, but upon a living faith, which in essence is obedience, obedience to the command to "Believe on the NAME of Jesus, the Christ, the only Way of salvation.
Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:32 am
Yet technically, I did not start that thread. " Dad always liked him best."ohio jones wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 4:27 pm
Neto, you have done a wonderful job of summation of the issues involved in definitions that culturally and historically bound. I quite like this.Neto wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:29 am The question posed here is really open ended, because the first task is then to define the terms.
Using the etymological definition of the terms here, one could say that IF "Plain Catholics" practice baptism upon personal faith, then they are 'Anabaptists'. Then, using the same approach to the meaning of the word "Catholic", we might as well ask if "Plain Mennonites" (or any other Christian group) are "Catholics". And the answer, in consideration of the same basic requirement, is yes, because "catholic" means "universal", "referring to the whole". But now I've worked myself into theological quicksand, where I'm implying that baptism is necessary for salvation. So really, this is all a question for God to answer, because He is the only one who can see the attitude and condition of the inner-most person.
Utilizing the traditional in-group definition of the word 'anabaptist', and then asking if the Amish are 'anabaptists', one must concede that some are, and some aren't. (Some are not because they hold to a position on baptism that only requires a "right confession", one that recognizes Jesus the Christ as the One through whom salvation may be received, where as the traditional stance of "the anabaptists" is that baptism should be undertaken upon the basis of a PERSONAL confession of faith in Jesus as the Savior.)
And, while we are at it, we might also reply in the same manner to the question of whether the Amish are "Catholic". That is, "some are, and some aren't. Some Catholics are also neither 'anabaptist' nor 'catholic'. Some self-proclaimed Mennonites are also not "catholic". And Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.) The answer to this question, however, lies on a different foundation - not on what kind baptism was accepted, or even if it was only a theological confession or a personal confession, but upon a living faith, which in essence is obedience, obedience to the command to "Believe on the NAME of Jesus, the Christ, the only Way of salvation.
Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:05 am
Neto,
I’m going to disagree with your ontology above.
Catholics, by definition, practice infant baptism and do not practice baptism after confession of faith.
Anabaptists, by definition, practice baptism after confession of faith.
A “Plain Catholic” that practiced baptism in confession of faith isn’t Catholic. They would be a Plain Anabaptist, a very well defined term.
Anabaptists are not Catholics. Catholics are not Anabaptists.
“Catholic” is also a well defined term. It no longer means “universal”; it refers to a particular sect of Christianity. The best definition of it would be “a sect of Christianity that recognises its pope as its highest office”.
No Anabaptists recognise the pope as the “head of the church”.
There is no reasonable analysis that consider Catholics to be Anabaptists. It is sort of like asking if Catholics are Protestant, or if tigers are wolves.
I’m going to disagree with your ontology above.
Catholics, by definition, practice infant baptism and do not practice baptism after confession of faith.
Anabaptists, by definition, practice baptism after confession of faith.
A “Plain Catholic” that practiced baptism in confession of faith isn’t Catholic. They would be a Plain Anabaptist, a very well defined term.
Anabaptists are not Catholics. Catholics are not Anabaptists.
“Catholic” is also a well defined term. It no longer means “universal”; it refers to a particular sect of Christianity. The best definition of it would be “a sect of Christianity that recognises its pope as its highest office”.
No Anabaptists recognise the pope as the “head of the church”.
There is no reasonable analysis that consider Catholics to be Anabaptists. It is sort of like asking if Catholics are Protestant, or if tigers are wolves.