Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Hats Off wrote:
Plain Catholic clothing is just dresses and work clothes without all the accessories. Since they’re on a mission to Anabaptists their clothing makes sense where your clothing would not.
I found this somewhere when I was looking for information on Plain Anabaptists but now I can't remember where so I can't give the source of the quote. However, when you go looking for Plain Catholics, you seem to keep going in circles. I would guess these people are not Anabaptist.
Here: Catholic Land Movement
There's some interesting discussion and some familiar photos. In the comments "Magnus" is the spokesman for Plain Catholics.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Hats Off »

Hats Off wrote:
Plain Catholic clothing is just dresses and work clothes without all the accessories. Since they’re on a mission to Anabaptists their clothing makes sense where your clothing would not.
I found this somewhere when I was looking for information on Plain Anabaptists[*] but now I can't remember where so I can't give the source of the quote. However, when you go looking for Plain Catholics, you seem to keep going in circles. I would guess these people are not Anabaptist.
[*]I meant to say Plain Catholics here.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Hats Off »

When you follow links from Plain Catholic to Catholic Land Movement and American Redoubt, it is quite easy that they have very little in common with Plain Amish or any other Anabaptist's.
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temporal1
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by temporal1 »

Hats Off wrote:When you follow links from Plain Catholic to Catholic Land Movement and American Redoubt, it is quite easy that they have very little in common with Plain Amish or any other Anabaptist's.
i understood Wayne's subject line question to be a rhetorical one. i don't believe anyone is confused about this? .. (Plain Catholics are not Anabaptists) or, trying to be confusing about it. it seems Max has left this discussion.

separately, Wayne's OP was directed to Plain Catholics; to my knowledge, Max is the only PC on this forum. i do not believe Max is a liar or imposter, at least, no more than any of the rest of us.
he may be more romantic and optimistic than some of us.

i took Wayne at his words in his subject line and OP, choosing not to accuse him of setting a trap or otherwise being duplicitous. i do not understand Wayne to be naive. he speaks frankly. i appreciate candor. i prefer a sting with candor over sweetness with hidden bitterness. not all agree.

interesting how each of us responds a little differently to any given scenario.
we each respond from our personal experience+understanding, combined with our individual traits.
not just in this instance. it's one way we get to learn from one another. :)
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

temporal1 wrote: i understood Wayne's subject line question to be a rhetorical one. i don't believe anyone is confused about this? .. (Plain Catholics are not Anabaptists) or, trying to be confusing about it. it seems Max has left this discussion
.
The title of this thread might be considered rhetorical, but the questions I raised are not:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.
Given the fact that Anabaptism was a reaction against Rome, and that the Schleitheim confession explicitly condemns certain Roman practices, I would like to know, from people familiar with the Plain Catholic movement, what common theological ground they have with the Dortrecht and Schleitheim confessions.
Wayne in Maine wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Interesting question, Wayne as neither group is exactly the same as they were 500 years. What are your goals for this question?
What are the goals for this question? Well, to get answers!

Max, you often suggest that there are real similarities between Plain Catholics and Anabaptists, even a working relationship between Amish and some of your group. In a recent discussion you said:
Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.
My question is not about kaps and cape dresses and shoo-fly pies. It is about your statement that plain Catholics or perhaps Catholics in general (You weren't clear on whose theology you were referring to in your statement) share common ground with Dortrecht and Schleitheim. I simply want to discuss this with someone familiar with your movement. I would be fascinated to know what parts of these fundamental confessions of faith of the Anabaptists your movement/church is grounded in.
temporal1 wrote:separately, Wayne's OP was directed to Plain Catholics; to my knowledge, Max is the only PC on this forum.
I had hoped Max might answer the questions I raised, and that we MennoNetters could then have a discussion on the commonality of Plain Catholic beliefs to the beliefs expressed in these early Anabaptist confessions of faith. I also suggested that Max could invite other Plain Catholics to join in the discussion.
i do not believe Max is a liar or imposter, at least, no more than any of the rest of us.
he may be more romantic and optimistic than some of us.
By posting this topic in response to a statement Max made, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that Plain Catholics actually exist and that he is one of them - though I have doubted that any such thing as "Plain Catholics" exist based on some of the evidenced Boot has presented at various times. In the very least I was interested in hearing what Max understood of the theological roots of Anabaptism and what the theological affinity is that he has with Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites rather than focusing on head coverings, beards and rural living (which are peripheral to Anabaptism).

No matter what one would like to discuss in this thread, it is tainted by Max's evasiveness and by the serious doubts we rightfully have about the authenticity of "Plain Catholics" ant the movement's promoter(s) and apologist(s).
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joshuabgood
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by joshuabgood »

I haven't seen one piece of compelling evidence that there is any such thing as Plain Catholics. So no...they aren't Anabaptist.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:i do not believe Max is a liar or imposter, at least, no more than any of the rest of us.
he may be more romantic and optimistic than some of us.
I believe it is usually best to focus on verifiable facts, such as what the Catechism or Canon Law or other official Catholic Teaching say, or verifiable history. All of us get things wrong sometimes. If we point out something that looks like a discrepancy, the best response is to address the facts, not to insist that the person saying it cannot be wrong.

Discussing, for instance, what Catholics teach about baptism and whether that can be reconciled with what Anabaptists teach can be helpful. In the context of Plain Catholics, it would be interesting to see how they reconcile the differences, if they claim to identify with both. And that's probably better than discussing whether Max is a liar or imposter.

I think it's really helpful to focus on the facts, and not what we think of the people.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Soloist »

realistically speaking, there is someone here who already knows for sure about Max, if he bothered to look... This is the internet... you leave trails.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Hats Off »

And from any information I have been able to find, i believe that there may be sincere Catholics who believe that a simple rural based lifestyle would be beneficial to them and there families. I even read a line somewhere that indicated they may hope with a plain lifestyle to convert some Amish to the Catholic faith. Anything I have read suggests that they may be individuals scattered across the country and subscribe fully to Catholic doctrine. This would seem to fit Max so unless he has a hidden agenda, I do not know what keeps him from responding more openly here.
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temporal1
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by temporal1 »

Thank you, i fully expected my post to be removed. i appreciate your patience.
Wayne:
temporal1 wrote: i understood Wayne's subject line question to be a rhetorical one. i don't believe anyone is confused about this? .. (Plain Catholics are not Anabaptists) or, trying to be confusing about it. it seems Max has left this discussion
.
The title of this thread might be considered rhetorical, but the questions I raised are not: ..
right. i attempted to point out the difference (i saw.) you know for certain your intent.
i see this thread as 2 parts, the subject line question, then, the questions to (Max.)
Wayne:
What are the goals for this question? Well, to get answers!
good response. understood.
Wayne:
Max, you often suggest that there are real similarities between Plain Catholics and Anabaptists, even a working relationship between Amish and some of your group. In a recent discussion you said:
Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.
My question is not about kaps and cape dresses and shoo-fly pies.
It is about your statement that plain Catholics or perhaps Catholics in general (You weren't clear on whose theology you were referring to in your statement) share common ground with Dortrecht and Schleitheim.
I simply want to discuss this with someone familiar with your movement. I would be fascinated to know what parts of these fundamental confessions of faith of the Anabaptists your movement/church is grounded in.
right.
Wayne:
I had hoped Max might answer the questions I raised, and that we MennoNetters could then have a discussion on the commonality of Plain Catholic beliefs to the beliefs expressed in these early Anabaptist confessions of faith. I also suggested that Max could invite other Plain Catholics to join in the discussion.
right.
Wayne:
me:
i do not believe Max is a liar or imposter, at least, no more than any of the rest of us.
he may be more romantic and optimistic than some of us.
By posting this topic in response to a statement Max made, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that Plain Catholics actually exist and that he is one of them - though I have doubted that any such thing as "Plain Catholics" exist based on some of the evidenced Boot has presented at various times.
In the very least I was interested in hearing what Max understood of the theological roots of Anabaptism and what the theological affinity is that he has with Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites rather than focusing on head coverings, beards and rural living (which are peripheral to Anabaptism).

No matter what one would like to discuss in this thread, it is tainted by Max's evasiveness and by the serious doubts we rightfully have about the authenticity of "Plain Catholics" ant the movement's promoter(s) and apologist(s).
i am interested in your questions, too.
attempting to force him to discuss is not working, force is not a real effective way to promote discussion. and, it does not change hearts, even when it changes words. that's why i was interested in your thread, your approach, your wording. you invited discussion. i looked forward to reading it.

you seem to agree with boot in principle, but, the first response came from boot, who is not PC, stating outright your questions would not get anywhere (to paraphrase.) in his zeal to lead his campaign, boot sabotaged the discussion (in my view) .. leading Max to bow out. i don't blame him.
who wants to try to engage with anyone who has stated over+over they have no trust or respect for you? in my experience, not many.

i don't believe it's always underhanded for anyone to (be honest) and simply state they do not want discussion with others. often, time and/or distance helps heal wounds, open doors, etc. unlike forcing, which really doesn't have a good history, in words, or actions. i don't see Max as a hero for his requested choice, neither a villain.

Paul and Barnabas had a hard time. it happens to "the best of us."

still, there are numbers of worthwhile posts here from others.
maybe at another time .. these questions can be revisited.
i will still be interested.

thank you again for your patience with me. i enjoy your perspective.
i hope not to be too stupid, or too offensive.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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