Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

[Josh]

Looks no different than most parishes (from which I freely confess I run away from very quickly….lol)

JayP: the UK Catholic Land Movement or Back to the Land Movement spawned the Plain Catholics. One of our characteristics is that we avoid all politics, both secular and those of the Church. One of the interesting observations I have made in my life is that all denominations and fellowships have political aspects. We focus upon our relationship with Jesus, our discipleship, our families. We live simply and control internet usage. We do not pursue secular distractions and entertainments.

I recommend two books if you are interested in the original CLM:
Flee to the Fields: The Faith and Works of the Catholic Land Movement

The Church and the Land by Fr. Vincent McNabb

Is it actually associated with the Catholic Land Movement, though? None of the CLM people I have run into have heard of Plain Catholics.

[MaxPC]

Looks no different than most parishes (from which I freely confess I run away from very quickly….lol)

JayP: the UK Catholic Land Movement or Back to the Land Movement spawned the Plain Catholics. One of our characteristics is that we avoid all politics, both secular and those of the Church. One of the interesting observations I have made in my life is that all denominations and fellowships have political aspects. We focus upon our relationship with Jesus, our discipleship, our families. We live simply and control internet usage. We do not pursue secular distractions and entertainments.

I recommend two books if you are interested in the original CLM:
Flee to the Fields: The Faith and Works of the Catholic Land Movement

The Church and the Land by Fr. Vincent McNabb

Is it actually associated with the Catholic Land Movement, though? None of the CLM people I have run into have heard of Plain Catholics.

The CLM people in the US are not a part of the UKs original CLM from which Plain Catholics emerged. The US folks are a new iteration calling themselves CLM and are quite different.

More properly, they should be named CLM-USA to differentiate themselves from the original in the UK.

CLM-USA does involve itself politically. When they were first creating their organisation they invited PCs to their convention. None of us were interested and they were unhappy.

The CLM of the UK avoided political involvements in either the secular or the Church. CLM-USA does get involved politically both in secular as well as the Church matters.

Additionally CLM-USA does not emphasise modesty in clothing as PCs do. We do not hold anything against them. We simply emphasise that they are an entirely different cuppa than the original CLM from the UK.

[Josh]

CLM-USA does involve itself politically. When they were first creating their organisation they invited PCs to their convention. None of us were interested and they were unhappy.

Are you sure about that? Exactly which PCs were invited? I ask, because none of these CLM(-USA) people I have met have ever heard of Plain Catholics or have any idea who they are.

The CLM of the UK avoided political involvements in either the secular or the Church. CLM-USA does get involved politically both in secular as well as the Church matters.

Are you sure about that? I don't see any teachings in the older CLM materials that normal political involvement is wrong. Nor do I see anything saying to avoid "church politics" (attending seminary or joining the priesthood was, in fact, encouraged, not discouraged).

Additionally CLM-USA does not emphasise modesty in clothing as PCs do. We do not hold anything against them. We simply emphasise that they are an entirely different cuppa than the original CLM from the UK.

That's also not correct. The CLM in the USA stereotypically has a certain type of modest attire, and at their latest gathering they had a dress code with a focus on modesty.

In any case, aren't you in the US?

[MaxPC]

CLM-USA does involve itself politically. When they were first creating their organisation they invited PCs to their convention. None of us were interested and they were unhappy.

[quote}Are you sure about that? Exactly which PCs were invited? I ask, because none of these CLM(-USA) people I have met have ever heard of Plain Catholics or have any idea who they are.

ANSWER: Indeed I am sure about that as it was discussed among the PCs via emails.

The CLM of the UK avoided political involvements in either the secular or the Church. CLM-USA does get involved politically both in secular as well as the Church matters.

Are you sure about that? I don't see any teachings in the older CLM materials that normal political involvement is wrong. Nor do I see anything saying to avoid "church politics" (attending seminary or joining the priesthood was, in fact, encouraged, not discouraged).

ANSWER: Indeed yes, I am quite sure; my parents were a part of the original movement of the CLM in the UK and it was decided by those families who became PC to avoid all politics either secular or Church.

Additionally CLM-USA does not emphasise modesty in clothing as PCs do. We do not hold anything against them. We simply emphasise that they are an entirely different cuppa than the original CLM from the UK.

That's also not correct. The CLM in the USA stereotypically has a certain type of modest attire, and at their latest gathering they had a dress code with a focus on modesty.

ANSWER: Our definition of modesty is more defined than the CLM-USA, another key difference between their iteration and our tradition; PCs include the women's head coverings and skirts and dresses, no pants for women.

PCs originated from the CLM of the UK. I was born in the UK to parents who were a part of the original CLM. PCs hold to the original CLM vision of staying out of the urban distractions of politics, consumerism, etc. This is our life and our choice of charism. We accept the fact that there are those who have their own vision of it and we will not argue about it. We know who we are and from whence we came.

[ohio jones]

As a side note, and just for conversation, I looked at your parish. What makes it plain?

Which parish are you referring to? I don't recall that Max has ever identified his parish. If you mean the link from Bootstrap in the post above yours, take note of the address of that parish, and it's plain to see what makes it Plain.

[Bootstrap]

As a side note, and just for conversation, I looked at your parish. What makes it plain?

Which parish are you referring to? I don't recall that Max has ever identified his parish. If you mean the link from Bootstrap in the post above yours, take note of the address of that parish, and it's plain to see what makes it Plain.

FWIW, I have also been to Saint Mary's Baptist Church. In Saint Mary's, Ontario.

[Josh]

ANSWER: Indeed I am sure about that as it was discussed among the PCs via emails.

Is there anyone in the CLM who would remember these conversations? As I said, nobody I have met in CLM circles recalls ever knowing who any PC people are. They have, however, seen the website, and have asked if anyone knows anything beyond the website.

ANSWER: Indeed yes, I am quite sure; my parents were a part of the original movement of the CLM in the UK and it was decided by those families who became PC to avoid all politics either secular or Church.

Was this decision ever written down anywhere?

ANSWER: Our definition of modesty is more defined than the CLM-USA, another key difference between their iteration and our tradition; PCs include the women's head coverings and skirts and dresses, no pants for women.

Where are these definitions defined? Are they written down anywhere?

PCs originated from the CLM of the UK. I was born in the UK to parents who were a part of the original CLM. PCs hold to the original CLM vision of staying out of the urban distractions of politics, consumerism, etc. This is our life and our choice of charism. We accept the fact that there are those who have their own vision of it and we will not argue about it. We know who we are and from whence we came.

You keep saying this is a "charism", but do any other Catholics ever declare that this is a charism?

In addition, politics is not just an "urban distraction". Rural and farming communities have a great deal of political involvement, too. Not to mention consumerism.

[JayP]

Live ur life as you choose. Just do not confuse readers here. There is no such formal thing as a Plain Catholic. There are Catholics, and I suppose some Catholics choose a plain lifestyle. But you just really should not put the words together implying they have meaning.

It is no different than my saying I am a Dieting Catholic.
Sure, I am a Catholic who is watching my calories. My worship is no different


My respectful point being your Catholicism is no different than any other Novus Ordo attending Catholic. You have no more, or less, sacraments. No different cathecism. Hence my point Plain is meaningless.

Now, my good friends who are Old Order Horse & Buggy Mennonites are Plain. My friends in LMC Andre not.
Being Plain has meaning in ow each of those groups interpret non conformity and separation.
When Anabaptist groups differ on applications of Non conformity or separation it has real practical and doctrinal impacts.

Just as my choice to be Roman Catholic rather than Orthodox (my family is split between both) has meaningful consequential differences.


Not condemning anyone.. just providing clarity. You do not say your priests or parish is not under a different Bishop than your neighbors that are Catholic, are you? Or under a different Pope? As a Catholic you either can trace up from your church and priests to bishops to the Pope. It is a formal hierarchy (even if Francis doesn’t know my name. LOL)

[MaxPC]

Live ur life as you choose. Just do not confuse readers here. There is no such formal thing as a Plain Catholic. There are Catholics, and I suppose some Catholics choose a plain lifestyle. But you just really should not put the words together implying they have meaning.

Respectfully, JayP this assumption is incorrect. Charisms do exist formally in the Church and are not assigned Ordinaries nor are they always communities and organisations.

Parishioners who are Lay Benedictines, Lay Carmelites, Lay Dominicans, etc. attend local parishes that are in local dioceses yet follow those charisms privately. Plain Catholics likewise are a formal charism similar to those above but we are less well known simply because we live in rural areas and indeed, we do exist. You can learn more about lay charisms such as those mentioned above with a lazy internet search. By the way, Pope John Paul II was a Lay Carmelite. Not many people knew that either.

[temporal1]

SUBJECT LINE: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

OP:

Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.

Given the fact that Anabaptism was a reaction against Rome, and that the Schleitheim confession explicitly condemns certain Roman practices, I would like to know, from people familiar with the Plain Catholic movement, what common theological ground they have with the Dortrecht and Schleitheim confessions.

Hats Off is no longer actively posting, he has several pertinent posts in the start of this topic:

I did a google search and ended up with pictures of women wearing kapps but also of clergy wearing such a long robe or mantel that they need one person just to carry it. Incredible pictures of incredible worship!

In the most ceremonies and uniforms, there is absolutely nothing to compare with Anabaptists.

i’m not sure why this topic has continued beyond a simple “No,” yet it has.
The OP question is not “Are Plain Catholics Catholic?” Or anything else.

The topic is interesting, the associated content interesting. It’s just the original question was not complex.
i miss Wayne. and Hats Off. i enjoy revisiting their input, the value does not fade.

In other topics, Wayne clarified with a few words, “Quakers are not Anabatist,” “Shakers are not Anabaptist,” etc.
It’s not complicated.

Page 2:

A Plain Catholic Charism
Mar 2, 2010 by Kevin Ford
I would like to start out with a caution about such an endeavour.
Plain Catholicism is indeed a noble thought, but we as Catholics must be careful when we model a movement off a heresy.

The Anabaptists adapted their way of life out of necessity in order to preserve their beliefs in the midst of heavy persecution.
Their ideas about Baptism represented a significant threat to the established Traditions of Christendom.
They were so far out that even the other Protestants felt threatened by them.
Nonetheless, these groups of Anabaptists survived and moved to the new World.

Today they are the only group that has kept a significant portion of our agricultural heritage alive.

However, as Catholics we must be careful to differentiate our own beliefs from theirs.
Anything that is not truly Catholic or cannot be reconciled and made Catholic must be left out of Plain Catholicism.
Care must be taken that we not confuse people and make them believe that we are Amish or Mennonite.

Possibly something that would distinguish Plain Catholics as specifically Catholic could be added to the apparel and Plain Catholicism could possibly become a lay movement. I myself wear and Amish straw hat because it is extremely functional and made much better than the ugly garden straw hats. It also represents an agriculural heritage that does not belong exclusively to the amish.

So Kevin Ford's answer is that Plain Catholics are definitely not Anabaptist.
To read more go to:
http://newcatholiclandmovement.org/a-pl ... c-charism/

^^More about, “Are Plain Catholics Catholic?”
Interesting, for sure. Not what Wayne was asking about, as far as i can tell.

i’m aware there is no shortage of living Catholics who are palpably angry with Martin Luther. They heap loads of blame on him.
(i think) it’s fair to believe, Catholics see themselves as distinct and, altho no longer killing heretics as a mission, they see themselves as distinct, and uniquely holy. None of that pertains to Wayne’s OP.