Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Robert
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Robert »

Hats Off wrote:And from any information I have been able to find, i believe that there may be sincere Catholics who believe that a simple rural based lifestyle would be beneficial to them and there families. I even read a line somewhere that indicated they may hope with a plain lifestyle to convert some Amish to the Catholic faith. Anything I have read suggests that they may be individuals scattered across the country and subscribe fully to Catholic doctrine. This would seem to fit Max so unless he has a hidden agenda, I do not know what keeps him from responding more openly here.
That would mean a plain Catholic, not a Plain Catholic. Maybe that is some of the misunderstanding, if there is some.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Robert wrote:
Hats Off wrote:And from any information I have been able to find, i believe that there may be sincere Catholics who believe that a simple rural based lifestyle would be beneficial to them and there families. I even read a line somewhere that indicated they may hope with a plain lifestyle to convert some Amish to the Catholic faith. Anything I have read suggests that they may be individuals scattered across the country and subscribe fully to Catholic doctrine. This would seem to fit Max so unless he has a hidden agenda, I do not know what keeps him from responding more openly here.
That would mean a plain Catholic, not a Plain Catholic. Maybe that is some of the misunderstanding, if there is some.
Max is quite explicit on MennoNet and in other forums including Catholic forums, that the Plain Catholic movement is over a hundred years old - that is, Max is referring not to Roman Catholics who like to dress plain or who are drawn to a simple agrarian Amish-like lifestyle, but an actual movement with a history and members or affiliates.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

Wayne in Maine wrote:Max is quite explicit on MennoNet and in other forums including Catholic forums, that the Plain Catholic movement is over a hundred years old - that is, Max is referring not to Roman Catholics who like to dress plain or who are drawn to a simple agrarian Amish-like lifestyle, but an actual movement with a history and members or affiliates.
And I really cannot find a movement with that name before 2001, and then only on the Internet. Even now, every mention of Plain Catholics I can find is easily traceable to their websites, and not based on people having direct knowledge of them. I also cannot find any kind of movement where Catholics dress like German Baptists or Amish.

Can anyone else find evidence I have not been able to find?
Bootstrap wrote:One other useful indicator: look for any mention of Plain Catholics before they put up their first website in 2001. Nada. Even after that, there just isn't anything that shares personal experiences knowing Plain Catholics.

In books, "plain Catholic" means a simple, normal Catholic, not a Catholic in Anabaptist clothing or a Catholic who decides to homestead.

The same is true in articles.

The Catholic Land Movement, on the other hand, is well attested in articles, in books, and on the Internet. There's widespread agreement that it died out without leaving a successor movement. And it was quite different from what we see described on the Plain Catholic website.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by MaxPC »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
What I posted from Canon Law was quite explicit " Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks"... The complete text of canon law regarding baptism is here: Code of Canon Law:BAPTISM (Cann. 849 - 878)
Wayne: Here's a better link that allows you to click through all the pages with the buttons at the bottom so that you can read these things in context.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2V.HTM

As you read through the pages, hopefully you will understand that the Code of Canon Law is essentially a manual for liturgical procedurals. This section covers Baptism procedures for all ages including for infants who survive abortion procedures.

I will not belabor this topic. Again, all in all, sharing similar positions on certain theology does not make Catholics, Anabaptists neither does it make Anabaptists, Catholics. It means we share common interpretations of the Book that binds us to the teachings of Christ. We may have different histories but at the end of the day we drink from the same Well of Hope. Hopefully that clarifies it for you. I'm here to learn about all things Anabaptist and have no intention of proselytizing anyone. Your questions are answered. I don't have time for any other forum except for this one and participating in this one takes up most of my computer time. I now realize thanks to some off list PMs from good people that there are others on other internet forums who discuss Plain Catholics. They aren't my concern or as one good friend says: "Not my circus, not my monkeys." Wayne, thank you for your email and will gladly answer any further questions you might have via that mode. At this point, this is my last post in this thread. Thank you to all who responded off list. I appreciate your kindness and your generosity in keeping this forum congenial.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

I think it's really important to realize that the Code of Canon Law is much more than a manual of liturgical procedures. It is quite simply the law of the Catholic Church.

As canon lawyer Ed Peters puts it:
Canon Law, the oldest continuously functioning legal system in the Western world, is the internal legal system of the Catholic Church:

• Internal: canon law lies wholly within the Church's authority to compose and administer, this, in contrast to the wide variety of external (usually civil) laws to which the Church generally defers in the pursuit of her divine mission;

• Legal: canon law operates according to the principles of law chiefly as set out in Aristotelian-Thomistic legal philosophy, this, in contrast to suggestions that canon law is simply applied theology, morals, or the rules of religious cult;

• System: canon law must be read as a whole for proper understanding and use, this, in contrast to suggestions that canon law is a collection of principles or aphorisms that are capable of being rightly appreciated in isolation from each other.

Canon law affects virtually every aspect of the faith life of over one billion Catholic Christians around the world. But, as Pope St. John Paul II explained when he promulgated the Code in 1983, canon law "is in no way intended as a substitute for faith, grace, charisms, and especially charity in the life of the Church and of the faithful. On the contrary, its purpose is rather to create such an order in the ecclesial society that, while assigning the primacy to love, grace, and charisms, it at the same time renders their organic development easier in the life of both the ecclesial society and the individual persons who belong to it." John Paul II, ap. con. Sacrae disciplinae leges (1983) 16. May the materials on this site further those goals!
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Valerie »

Well Max allowed me to share what he said to me via pm:

Greetings: I'll answer the questions that are standing out at the moment.
Re Baptisms: The important point I have re the Code of Canon Law is this: removing one paragraph to quote out of context is not the way to look at the COCL, the CCC, or the Bible. That single excerpt posted alone is grossly misleading just as posting a single paragraph from the Bible misleads. That paragraph on infant baptism came from a larger section on procedurals. Farther into that section of the CCOL the procedurals are also given for adult baptism; baptism for fetuses that manage to survive abortion procedures; baptism on the deathbed; etc. The Catholic Church can and does baptize adults. The choice is up to the believer.

The common ground to which I'm referring is the belief in the Trinity, Salvation, Resurrection, etc. For us, these are the chief and principle matters of all theological points. The Dordrecht does do a more thorough job of defining Anabaptist teachings in these matters of God and His plans. They are in sync with our teachings. God's nature and plan for our salvation is in our view, the most important teaching of all. Age of baptism aside, there are many more points on which we agree in these matters than disagree.


As I recall, and Max reemphaiszed to me in pm- his problem with you quoting excerpts out of context somewhat in the same way we can do with Scriptures is why he finds your posts misleading therefore when he saw you continued to do that he dropped dialogue- apparently there is quite a lot to the 'whole' as opposed to the excerpts to consider- for an accurate teaching
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:On Catholic Forums, this thread may be helpful:
Plain_Catholic wrote:We have an apostolate to the Amish and other Anabaptist groups. Our plain and simply modest clothing with head coverings breaks down many barriers to facilitate dialogue with these groups. My wife and daughters have been very effective in their presence and witness to our Catholic faith while they wear prayer kapps and caped dresses. The New Evangelization calls everyone.
So the new topic is "Are Plain Catholics proselytizing Anabaptist?"
Ah yes Wayne, you have hit the nail on the head here!

Dressing like and adopting some of the outward trappings of your "target" group are standards from the missionaries toolbox. It is called "contextualization" and we did it in the middle east big time. My family lived in a local style home (My wife was in a constant war with dust), the gals wore local clothes as much as they could, we did not drink or give the appearance of drinking alcohol and we hid our bacon carefully. Wr adopted many of the sleep and visiting patterns of the locals. Most missionaries from Hudson Taylor forward have done this to a greater or lesser extent.

Trying to take individuals out of the group and get into one-to-one dialogue is another recommended tactic, as it both relieves the one being proselytized from group pressure to conform, and prevents other, more nimble members of the group from shooting holes in your arguments. No successful missionary will ever attempt to evangelize someone in the presence of other members of the group. It just does not work well

Is our "Plain Catholic" a "missionary? Well if it quacks like a duck, has webbed feet and waddles, than it must be a.......duck.

J.M.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

Re Baptisms: The important point I have re the Code of Canon Law is this: removing one paragraph to quote out of context is not the way to look at the COCL, the CCC, or the Bible.
Of course.

But if you read the entire section of the Catechism and the corresponding sections of Canon Law, I really see no way to come to this conclusion:
The Catholic Church can and does baptize adults. The choice is up to the believer.
Canon Law and the Catechism both clearly say that baptizing infants is obligatory, and adults validly baptized as infants must not be baptized again. Reading the entire teaching on these matters from both sources, from start to finish, in context, makes this very clear. I have done that multiple times.
The common ground to which I'm referring is the belief in the Trinity, Salvation, Resurrection, etc. For us, these are the chief and principle matters of all theological points. The Dordrecht does do a more thorough job of defining Anabaptist teachings in these matters of God and His plans. They are in sync with our teachings. God's nature and plan for our salvation is in our view, the most important teaching of all. Age of baptism aside, there are many more points on which we agree in these matters than disagree.
Yes, certainly. The Catholic Church uses the same Bible we do and we serve the same God. We have a great deal in common.
As I recall, and Max reemphaiszed to me in pm- his problem with you quoting excerpts out of context somewhat in the same way we can do with Scriptures is why he finds your posts misleading therefore when he saw you continued to do that he dropped dialogue- apparently there is quite a lot to the 'whole' as opposed to the excerpts to consider- for an accurate teaching
This is really puzzling to me. I really do not see any possible way to read the sections he refers to that changes the basic meaning of those two sentences I quoted. There is no sentence in either section that suggests in any way that infant baptism is optional, or that someone validly baptized as an infant can be baptized as an adult. Neither of these is hard to read. In the past, I have sometimes asked a canon lawyer or priest to help me with something that looks complex, but this seems so clear from a simple reading of the text that I don't even know what I would ask.

Is there any official source of Catholic teaching that says infant baptism is optional, or adults can be baptized if they were baptized as infants in a way that the Catholic Church recognizes as valid?

Can someone explain exactly how the rest of these sections changes what looks like the plain meaning of the parts I quoted?
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:On Catholic Forums, this thread may be helpful:
So the new topic is "Are Plain Catholics proselytizing Anabaptist?"
Ah yes Wayne, you have hit the nail on the head here!

Dressing like and adopting some of the outward trappings of your "target" group are standards from the missionaries toolbox. It is called "contextualization" and we did it in the middle east big time. My family lived in a local style home (My wife was in a constant war with dust), the gals wore local clothes as much as they could, we did not drink or give the appearance of drinking alcohol and we hid our bacon carefully. Wr adopted many of the sleep and visiting patterns of the locals. Most missionaries from Hudson Taylor forward have done this to a greater or lesser extent.

Trying to take individuals out of the group and get into one-to-one dialogue is another recommended tactic, as it both relieves the one being proselytized from group pressure to conform, and prevents other, more nimble members of the group from shooting holes in your arguments. No successful missionary will ever attempt to evangelize someone in the presence of other members of the group. It just does not work well

Is our "Plain Catholic" a "missionary? Well if it quacks like a duck, has webbed feet and waddles, than it must be a.......duck.

J.M.
Max, in all of his private messages to me the past couple of years, has never ONCE said anything close to proseltytizing or drawing me to Catholicism- not whatsoever. And if I remember right, it was an MD poster BEFORE Max, an Anabaptist- can't remember which one of you- that brought up Plaincatholics in the first place- not Max- Max came on shortly after- if that person (I foeget who) hadn't invited him on MD, he probably wouldn't be here- or else if they didn't invite him, it was a very strange coincidence time wise- but Max didn't originate the topic of Plain Catholics, one of your own did.
I would think if there was ANYONE Max would try to target to draw to Catholicism on here, it would be me- for obvious reasons- but there was not one ounce of that going on behind the scenes.

Anyone else get the impression he was in his personal messages to you?
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
So the new topic is "Are Plain Catholics proselytizing Anabaptist?"
Ah yes Wayne, you have hit the nail on the head here!

Dressing like and adopting some of the outward trappings of your "target" group are standards from the missionaries toolbox. It is called "contextualization" and we did it in the middle east big time. My family lived in a local style home (My wife was in a constant war with dust), the gals wore local clothes as much as they could, we did not drink or give the appearance of drinking alcohol and we hid our bacon carefully. Wr adopted many of the sleep and visiting patterns of the locals. Most missionaries from Hudson Taylor forward have done this to a greater or lesser extent.

Trying to take individuals out of the group and get into one-to-one dialogue is another recommended tactic, as it both relieves the one being proselytized from group pressure to conform, and prevents other, more nimble members of the group from shooting holes in your arguments. No successful missionary will ever attempt to evangelize someone in the presence of other members of the group. It just does not work well

Is our "Plain Catholic" a "missionary? Well if it quacks like a duck, has webbed feet and waddles, than it must be a.......duck.

J.M.
Max, in all of his private messages to me the past couple of years, has never ONCE said anything close to proseltytizing or drawing me to Catholicism- not whatsoever. And if I remember right, it was an MD poster BEFORE Max, an Anabaptist- can't remember which one of you- that brought up Plaincatholics in the first place- not Max- Max came on shortly after- if that person (I foeget who) hadn't invited him on MD, he probably wouldn't be here- or else if they didn't invite him, it was a very strange coincidence time wise- but Max didn't originate the topic of Plain Catholics, one of your own did.
I would think if there was ANYONE Max would try to target to draw to Catholicism on here, it would be me- for obvious reasons- but there was not one ounce of that going on behind the scenes.

Anyone else get the impression he was in his personal messages to you?
Your outrage seems a bit misplaced, as you seem to be trying to win people over to Eastern Orthodoxy!

Just saying, there are standard missionary tactics. I should know, I was one for three years.

Once again, judge for yourself.

J.M.
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