Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Bootstrap
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:Those who are genuinely interested in the truth are mature enough to contact me and the Plain Catholics directly as they have always done.
Those who are genuinely interested in the truth try to find facts from reliable sources, ask questions, and answer simple questions with direct answers. Everyone starts with the benefit of the doubt, but nobody is the sole source of truth.

If you had facts to back your claims, I think you would have shared them by now. If Plain Catholics were part of a continuous 100+ year movement starting with the Catholic Land Movement, contrary to the books and articles that say the Catholic Land Movement died out without a successor, I think you would have told us about who carried it on and where, sharing their writings or things written about them. If you had real pictures of Plain Catholics dressed like German Baptists and Amish and living in homes like theirs, I think you would have used those pictures on your website instead of plagiarizing images of German Baptists and Amish and various Amish and Mennonite museums found on Pinterest and other Internet sites. If Plain Catholics really go to Amish and Mennonite services and take their Amish and Mennonite friends to mass with them sometimes, I think we would see people sharing that on various forums, and I think we would know about them via the Mennonite network. If Canon Law or the Catechism said what you claim, I think you would have shared a quote or two that say parents are free to decide whether to baptize their children as infants or wait until they are older.

If people are learning new facts that help us believe what you are saying in your PMs, I hope they share them. But as things stand, I don't think you have shown yourself to be genuinely interested in the truth, and facts are what we need to establish the truth of your claims.
MaxPC wrote:Those who are simply trying to stir trouble and gossip have no interest in living a life of authentic Christian discipleship and nothing I say will change that. They will simply ignore reason and continue to twist and manipulate the truth, just as has happened to Anabaptists and other followers of Christ down through the ages.
I do change my mind in the light of facts. Providing the kind of information that I asked for above would help me see that I was wrong. But I won't just take your word for it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt for the first year or so, but you have long since burned through that.

I am not your judge. But to me, that paragraph - and especially your PMs to other people - seem designed to stir up controversy and use character assassination to avoid discussing what the facts are. When caught in a lie, you attack the other person's character while claiming to be a martyr. That's not martyrdom. And it's a tactic I see starting with the first posts on the Plain Catholic site.

If these things are not lies, please share the information that we are missing. If you share this information in PMs, I hope someone else will share it here so we can know the truth you claim we missed. To me, some of the things I listed in the first paragraphs seem to "twist and manipulate the truth", and you seem to be ignoring the facts people provide, refusing to respond to them, going on the attack instead.

Authentic Christian discipleship really is the goal. And authentic is an important part of that.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:Has anyone here (besides MaxPC themself) met an Plain Catholic?

I am thinking that someone, somewhere, sometime, must have met one.
I will expect you will see one about the same time as you bag a unicorn on the first day of hunting season.

Imagine going to a tagging station with that!

J.M.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

MaxPC wrote:
Robert wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Those who are genuinely interested in the truth are mature enough to contact me and the Plain Catholics directly as they have always done. Those who are simply trying to stir trouble and gossip have no interest in living a life of authentic Christian discipleship and nothing I say will change that. They will simply ignore reason and continue to twist and manipulate the truth, just as has happened to Anabaptists and other followers of Christ down through the ages.
There are some from both camps, but that philosophy is very black and white. Most people are more in the gray areas. I have heard it said that it takes a person, on average, to have 7 positive contacts with the Gospel and those who follow it before they will make a commitment themselves.

Sometimes, a person exploring lightly plants a seed that God will water and bring growth from much later.
Yes it is. YMMV. :lol:
IF this is a real catholic group, who is your Ordinary? All Catholic groups must have one, as it is your connection to the rest of the church.

J.M.
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Valerie
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Those who are genuinely interested in the truth are mature enough to contact me and the Plain Catholics directly as they have always done.
Those who are genuinely interested in the truth try to find facts from reliable sources, ask questions, and answer simple questions with direct answers. Everyone starts with the benefit of the doubt, but nobody is the sole source of truth.

If you had facts to back your claims, I think you would have shared them by now. If Plain Catholics were part of a continuous 100+ year movement starting with the Catholic Land Movement, contrary to the books and articles that say the Catholic Land Movement died out without a successor, I think you would have told us about who carried it on and where, sharing their writings or things written about them. If you had real pictures of Plain Catholics dressed like German Baptists and Amish and living in homes like theirs, I think you would have used those pictures on your website instead of plagiarizing images of German Baptists and Amish and various Amish and Mennonite museums found on Pinterest and other Internet sites. If Plain Catholics really go to Amish and Mennonite services and take their Amish and Mennonite friends to mass with them sometimes, I think we would see people sharing that on various forums, and I think we would know about them via the Mennonite network. If Canon Law or the Catechism said what you claim, I think you would have shared a quote or two that say parents are free to decide whether to baptize their children as infants or wait until they are older.

If people are learning new facts that help us believe what you are saying in your PMs, I hope they share them. But as things stand, I don't think you have shown yourself to be genuinely interested in the truth, and facts are what we need to establish the truth of your claims.
MaxPC wrote:Those who are simply trying to stir trouble and gossip have no interest in living a life of authentic Christian discipleship and nothing I say will change that. They will simply ignore reason and continue to twist and manipulate the truth, just as has happened to Anabaptists and other followers of Christ down through the ages.
I do change my mind in the light of facts. Providing the kind of information that I asked for above would help me see that I was wrong. But I won't just take your word for it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt for the first year or so, but you have long since burned through that.

I am not your judge. But to me, that paragraph - and especially your PMs to other people - seem designed to stir up controversy and use character assassination to avoid discussing what the facts are. When caught in a lie, you attack the other person's character while claiming to be a martyr. That's not martyrdom. And it's a tactic I see starting with the first posts on the Plain Catholic site.

If these things are not lies, please share the information that we are missing. If you share this information in PMs, I hope someone else will share it here so we can know the truth you claim we missed. To me, some of the things I listed in the first paragraphs seem to "twist and manipulate the truth", and you seem to be ignoring the facts people provide, refusing to respond to them, going on the attack instead.

Authentic Christian discipleship really is the goal. And authentic is an important part of that.
I asked before and will ask again- does anyone remember which member of Mennodiscuss brought up the Plain Catholics to begin with? As I remember, Max came here AFTER the MD member brought up that they had found Plain Catholics- I don't recall how they found them, why they sought out about them or how all this took place, anyone able to tap into that archive?

Also Max said he wasn't posting in this thread any longer- not sure if that means he's not reading it- I don't know how I'd respond to people that consitently claim I am a liar- whether I would bother. I think there were times Jesus didn't answer His accusers- however, Max said we can contact Plain Catholics for ourselves- I guess I will ask him how via pm- yet at this point with my walk & journey, (or 'ours' in our home) we do believe that Roman Catholocism had gone astray even if 'some' of the accusations against them by Protestants we understand and have received clarity on thereby removing 'some' of our issues-

They don't claim, nor has Max claimed- to be Anabaptists- only to emphasize some common ground. I don't really fully understand 'canon laws' in the Church, I understand why they began, as the Church was being 'built' but if there are exceptions to laws and explanations why exceptions are allowed then there are those in leadership roles that are given that decision making- probably based on authority given to the Apostles and their successors:

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

I could be wrong about that, but if the preference of the Church by Canon law is to baptize their infants, they may not 'force' this- depending on the situation- thinking that Mosaic law called to stone those in adultery where Christ offered 'grace' in several areas where He chose to 'break law' by mercy- perhaps that's same with canon law?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie, in general I try to keep the discussion open, but I think I'll respond to you via PM. In general, I think it's hard to use this thread constructively without direct answers to the questions that have been asked. And I think a lot of people would like this thread to die down unless those answers are given.
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Robert
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Robert »

https://forums.catholic.com/t/what-is-a ... c/284565/9
I was the one who posted the question regarding finding Catholics like us in Virginia. When referring to being "Plain" I was indeed referring to an Amish-like way of life. Please keep in mind, however, Plain Catholics to not live in isolated communities with their own set of rules as do the Amish/Mennonites.

Simply put, most Plain Catholics are just regular, average, run of the mill folks who want a simpler, more Faith-filled life. We attend Mass at our local parishes, whether NO or TM, and are fully obedient to the Magisterium. We are emphatically NOT a cult, nor are we breakaway Amish. Some are more Plain than others - no modern technology, homesteading, etc, while some are more like my family, who enjoy most modern conveniences but are very Traditional. We do dress Plain, but I make a point to not allow the cape dresses and prayer caps that the Amish wear. I don't want to be mistaken for something I'm not! We wear the basic modest dress of the Amish, which is really only because they are the only ones who make them, but our head coverings are bandanas, scarves, snoods. We cover all the time.

My original post was looking for other families like us, mainly other Catholics who dress like us, and cover full time. :D
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by temporal1 »

thanks, Robert, i read further "comments" in your link, they correspond to various things i've read from Max. i have no idea if he continues to read this thread or not. his choice.

if max is present to steal souls - he is not good at it! :?
have any changed their beliefs due to max?!
no. i didn't think so.

the greatest threats are from sinners within, Jesus faced the same problems.
unfortunately, in 2000 years, no improvement.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:if max is present to steal souls - he is not good at it! :?
have any changed their beliefs due to max?!
no. i didn't think so.
It's easy to fact-check verifiable facts. It's hard to know someone else's motivation. (Often we're not even aware of our own motivation - most humans are very good at being in denial - but that's another topic.)

What we know, I think, is that a lot of claims about Plain Catholics don't seem to add up - pictures are plagiarized images of other things, the history doesn't match what books and articles tell us about the Catholic Land Movement, etc. We also know that Max is not willing to answer questions about claims he makes that do not add up. I don't think anyone here knows him in real life, most of what we know about him is what he says here and on his website. To really understand, it would be helpful to talk to people who know him well, but I don't think that is possible.

On Catholic Forums, Plain_Catholic claims to have created the website together with others, and also claims that the reason for Amish / German Brethren clothing is to be able to reach out to their neighbors - evangelism is specifically mentioned. But it's just as likely that they enjoy writing Amish fiction and it gives them something to talk about. Or it could be some other reason, who knows. A lot of websites do not portray reality. I'm sure the reasons for that vary.

But I don't think we need to know why someone would pass off images of Amish and German Brethren and plain Mennonites as something else to notice. There are lots of other claims that just don't match reality. It's harder to know the motivation - especially with someone who will not even admit to anything. But it's easy to look at verifiable facts and say something does not add up.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

Valerie said,
I asked before and will ask again- does anyone remember which member of Mennodiscuss brought up the Plain Catholics to begin with? As I remember, Max came here AFTER the MD member brought up that they had found Plain Catholics- I don't recall how they found them, why they sought out about them or how all this took place, anyone able to tap into that archive?
I am the one who started a topic on Plain Catholics and linked it to the website Bootstrap has referenced.

I came across it in a search of Anabaptism, plain people, or plain clothing. I think I was doing a bit of historical research on Anabaptist dress, etc. I simply came across the website accidentally. I had never heard of Plain Catholics and thought I would share it with the MD community to see what they thought of it. Shortly afterward MaxPC joined the forum and contributed to the topic. I assumed he found MD through the link I had shared to what I assumed was his website.

I'm sorry, I haven't been on MN for months so I haven't seen this question raised or read the discussion around it.
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Valerie
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Valerie »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:Valerie said,
I asked before and will ask again- does anyone remember which member of Mennodiscuss brought up the Plain Catholics to begin with? As I remember, Max came here AFTER the MD member brought up that they had found Plain Catholics- I don't recall how they found them, why they sought out about them or how all this took place, anyone able to tap into that archive?
I am the one who started a topic on Plain Catholics and linked it to the website Bootstrap has referenced.

I came across it in a search of Anabaptism, plain people, or plain clothing. I think I was doing a bit of historical research on Anabaptist dress, etc. I simply came across the website accidentally. I had never heard of Plain Catholics and thought I would share it with the MD community to see what they thought of it. Shortly afterward MaxPC joined the forum and contributed to the topic. I assumed he found MD through the link I had shared to what I assumed was his website.

I'm sorry, I haven't been on MN for months so I haven't seen this question raised or read the discussion around it.
Thank you, I was beginning to think I had dreamed this! My point in asking or bringing this up, was to say that Max didn't arrive here it seemed to me, to steal sheep- i remembered someone else starting the topic of Plain Catholics and he showed up shortly thereafter- thank you Mrs. Nisley- I thought I had a senior moment or something
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