Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

[ken_sylvania]

I looked up Plain Catholics and found instructions on kapp making. The pictures show people dressed in Amish style. Interesting.

I would guess, though, that the only photo you found actually showing a Catholic wearing a kapp of any sort would be similar to this one.

[Wayne in Maine]

Interesting question, Wayne as neither group is exactly the same as they were 500 years. What are your goals for this question?

What are the goals for this question? Well, to get answers!

Max, you often suggest that there are real similarities between Plain Catholics and Anabaptists, even a working relationship between Amish and some of your group. In a recent discussion you said:

Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.

Our family has acquaintances who are very, very conservative, homeschooling/homesteading, Latin Mass attending Roman Catholics. Let's say they are the closest to "plain" among Catholics I know. We don't talk religion - they have an old Catholic view of Anabaptists as fanatical schematics - early in our acquaintance they mentioned the Muenster uprising as the origin of the Amish, Mennonites and Hutterites. They certainly would have no affinity for Schleitheim and Dortrecht.

My question is not about kaps and cape dresses and shoo-fly pies. It is about your statement that plain Catholics or perhaps Catholics in general (You weren't clear on whose theology you were referring to in your statement) share common ground with Dortrecht and Schleitheim. I simply want to discuss this with someone familiar with your movement. I would be fascinated to know what parts of these fundamental confessions of faith of the Anabaptists your movement/church is grounded in.

There is no reason to discuss this privately. You might even invite some others of your Plain Catholic circle to join MennoNet and be a part of this discussion.

[MaxPC]

... In a recent discussion you said:

Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.

Our family has acquaintances who are very, very conservative, homeschooling/homesteading, Latin Mass attending Roman Catholics. Let's say they are the closest to "plain" among Catholics I know. We don't talk religion - they have an old Catholic view of Anabaptists as fanatical schematics - early in our acquaintance they mentioned the Muenster uprising as the origin of the Amish, Mennonites and Hutterites. They certainly would have no affinity for Schleitheim and Dortrecht.

My question is not about kaps and cape dresses and shoo-fly pies. It is about your statement that plain Catholics or perhaps Catholics in general (You weren't clear on whose theology you were referring to in your statement) share common ground with Dortrecht and Schleitheim. I simply want to discuss this with someone familiar with your movement. I would be fascinated to know what parts of these fundamental confessions of faith of the Anabaptists your movement/church is grounded in.

I think I see your perspective now that you describe your acquaintances. Your statement "they have an old Catholic view of Anabaptists as fanatical schematics" clarifies things quite a bit. That view is not held by the RCC in this day and age. Indeed, 3 Popes (John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis) have made public confessions and apologies for atrocities committed during the Reformation. Your acquaintances may be out of touch with the current Church teaching and atttitudes if they sequester themselves in the manner you describe. Plain Catholics are in communion with the RCC. While some may attend a Latin Mass (in the Novus Ordo format), we do not hold to ancient attitudes towards other denominations and congregations from other historical eras, e.g. 500 years ago, knowing that the emotions of those eras did not always allow for the light of Christ to shine.
Re the Schleitheim: That's the only harsh language I could find in the Schleitheim, none in the Dordrecht.The editorial note below from the Schleitheim Confession page at Bible Views brings some light to the harsher language in that document:

* This severe judgment on the state churches must be understood in the light of sixteenth century conditions. The state clergymen were in many cases careless and carnal men. All citizens in a given province were considered members of the state church because they had been made Christians ("chrisened") by infant baptism. Also, in 1527 Zurich had begun to use capital punishment on the Swiss Brethren, with the full approval of the state church leaders. Sattler himself was burned at the stake less than three months after the Schleitheim conference.[url]http://www.bibleviews.com/Schleitheim.html#four[/url

When I mentioned the common theological ground I find in those two documents, I read those documents with an eye to the statements of faith rather than that one impassioned statement of the Schleitheim: the statements on Jesus is our Savior; the Trinity; Matrimony; the Coming of Christ; Resurrection and Last Judgment, and several others share common interpretations our own and make up much of our Deposit of Faith (Core Dogma). The Bible citations are interpreted in a similar manner as we interpret them. Even as I write this, the Vatican is re-examining the "just war" stance it has held previously with an eye to eliminating it. All in all, sharing similar positions on certain theology does not make Catholics, Anabaptists neither does it make Anabaptists, Catholics. It means we share common interpretations of the Book that binds us to the teachings of Christ. We may have different histories but at the end of the day we drink from the same Well of Hope. Hopefully that clarifies it for you.

[Hats Off]

Max, was Catherine De Hueck Doherty involved in the Plain Catholic charism? i believe she was from our area.

[MaxPC]

Max, was Catherine De Hueck Doherty involved in the Plain Catholic charism? i believe she was from our area.

No, she wasn't, HatsOff. She was about communal living. We're individual families on farms.

Wayne, I will really be shocked if any of the aforementioned questions are answered but I wouldn't mind looking at these confessions out of curiosity. Do you know of a link(s) to these for easy reading ?

Prepare to be shocked, Sudsy See my answer:
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... =10#p20743

I found the Bible Views copies of the Schleitheim and the Dordrecht Confessions very easy to use and they're from a trusted translation.
Schleitheim
Dordrecht

[mike]

When I mentioned the common theological ground I find in those two documents, I read those documents with an eye to the statements of faith rather than that one impassioned statement of the Schleitheim: the statements on Jesus is our Savior; the Trinity; Matrimony; the Coming of Christ; Resurrection and Last Judgment, and several others share common interpretations our own and make up much of our Deposit of Faith (Core Dogma).

The prime article of Schleitheim is Baptism, which you do not include in your list of common theological ground; also missing is The Sword. Baptism of believers and nonresistance are core doctrines of Anabaptism; may I take by the omission of these articles that Plain Catholics do not share these doctrinal positions?

[Hats Off]

"The source of much of this is Joyce Laird, a lady from Dahlonega, GA, who is trying to generate interest and gather people to form a Plain Catholic intentional community.
Mrs. Laird was formerly a frequent poster on several Mennonite/Anabaptist Yahoo groups, which is where I first became aware of her.

Thread: Plain Catholics on Catholic Community Forum.

It appears to be genuine with some blending of Amish clothing and lifestyle, with homeschooling, back to the land, and Catholicism.

[MaxPC]

When I mentioned the common theological ground I find in those two documents, I read those documents with an eye to the statements of faith rather than that one impassioned statement of the Schleitheim: the statements on Jesus is our Savior; the Trinity; Matrimony; the Coming of Christ; Resurrection and Last Judgment, and several others share common interpretations our own and make up much of our Deposit of Faith (Core Dogma).

The prime article of Schleitheim is Baptism, which you do not include in your list of common theological ground; also missing is The Sword. Baptism of believers and nonresistance are core doctrines of Anabaptism; may I take by your omitting these articles that Plain Catholics do not share these doctrinal positions?

Re Baptism: there is nothing in our Catechism that mandates infant baptism. It's more a custom than a Tradition in Catholic understanding.
Re the Sword, kindly note what I said in my answer to Wayne's query: "Even as I write this, the Vatican is re-examining the "just war" stance it has held previously with an eye to eliminating it."

"The source of much of this is Joyce Laird, a lady from Dahlonega, GA, who is trying to generate interest and gather people to form a Plain Catholic intentional community.
Mrs. Laird was formerly a frequent poster on several Mennonite/Anabaptist Yahoo groups, which is where I first became aware of her.

Thread: Plain Catholics on Catholic Community Forum.

It appears to be genuine with some blending of Amish clothing and lifestyle, with homeschooling, back to the land, and Catholicism.

That comment was posted by a person who apparently had no understanding of who and what we are and certainly that person misunderstood anything Joyce Laird may have said. Joyce Laird did not start the Plain Catholics and has never proposed we join in Plain Catholic community. Plain Catholics have been in existence 100+ years. Such is the nature of forums when people don't read carefully or persist in their own ideas in spite of any response given. As you can see, people misunderstand us just as they misunderstand Anabaptists, Methodists, Baptists, etc.

[Hats Off]

A Plain Catholic Charism
Mar 2, 2010 by Kevin Ford
I would like to start out with a caution about such an endeavour. Plain Catholicism is indeed a noble thought, but we as Catholics must be careful when we model a movement off a heresy. The Anabaptists adapted their way of life out of necessity in order to preserve their beliefs in the midst of heavy persecution. Their ideas about Baptism represented a significant threat to the established Traditions of Christendom. They were so far out that even the other Protestants felt threatened by them. Nonetheless, these groups of Anabaptists survived and moved to the new World. Today they are the only group that has kept a significant portion of our agricultural heritage alive. However, as Catholics we must be careful to differentiate our own beliefs from theirs. Anything that is not truly Catholic or cannot be reconciled and made Catholic must be left out of Plain Catholicism. Care must be taken that we not confuse people and make them believe that we are Amish or Mennonite. Possibly something that would distinguish Plain Catholics as specifically Catholic could be added to the apparel and Plain Catholicism could possibly become a lay movement. I myself wear and Amish straw hat because it is extremely functional and made much better than the ugly garden straw hats. It also represents an agriculural heritage that does not belong exclusively to the amish.

So Kevin Ford's answer is that Plain Catholics are definitely not Anabaptist. To read more go to:
http://newcatholiclandmovement.org/a-pl ... c-charism/

[MaxPC]

A Plain Catholic Charism
Mar 2, 2010 by Kevin Ford
I would like to start out with a caution about such an endeavour. Plain Catholicism is indeed a noble thought, but we as Catholics must be careful when we model a movement off a heresy. The Anabaptists adapted their way of life out of necessity in order to preserve their beliefs in the midst of heavy persecution. Their ideas about Baptism represented a significant threat to the established Traditions of Christendom. They were so far out that even the other Protestants felt threatened by them. Nonetheless, these groups of Anabaptists survived and moved to the new World. Today they are the only group that has kept a significant portion of our agricultural heritage alive. However, as Catholics we must be careful to differentiate our own beliefs from theirs. Anything that is not truly Catholic or cannot be reconciled and made Catholic must be left out of Plain Catholicism. Care must be taken that we not confuse people and make them believe that we are Amish or Mennonite. Possibly something that would distinguish Plain Catholics as specifically Catholic could be added to the apparel and Plain Catholicism could possibly become a lay movement. I myself wear and Amish straw hat because it is extremely functional and made much better than the ugly garden straw hats. It also represents an agriculural heritage that does not belong exclusively to the amish.

So Kevin Ford's answer is that Plain Catholics are definitely not Anabaptist. To read more to to:
http://newcatholiclandmovement.org/a-pl ... c-charism/

This is another example of a person who does not understand who we are. Comprehension seems to be an increasingly rare commodity in this day and age. I do know that Kevin Ford tried to start an intentional Catholic community based on old attitudes and a Latin liturgy that is no longer used. His community never happened. He prefers non-reformed Catholicism.