Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Valerie
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Ah yes Wayne, you have hit the nail on the head here!

Dressing like and adopting some of the outward trappings of your "target" group are standards from the missionaries toolbox. It is called "contextualization" and we did it in the middle east big time. My family lived in a local style home (My wife was in a constant war with dust), the gals wore local clothes as much as they could, we did not drink or give the appearance of drinking alcohol and we hid our bacon carefully. Wr adopted many of the sleep and visiting patterns of the locals. Most missionaries from Hudson Taylor forward have done this to a greater or lesser extent.

Trying to take individuals out of the group and get into one-to-one dialogue is another recommended tactic, as it both relieves the one being proselytized from group pressure to conform, and prevents other, more nimble members of the group from shooting holes in your arguments. No successful missionary will ever attempt to evangelize someone in the presence of other members of the group. It just does not work well

Is our "Plain Catholic" a "missionary? Well if it quacks like a duck, has webbed feet and waddles, than it must be a.......duck.

J.M.
Max, in all of his private messages to me the past couple of years, has never ONCE said anything close to proseltytizing or drawing me to Catholicism- not whatsoever. And if I remember right, it was an MD poster BEFORE Max, an Anabaptist- can't remember which one of you- that brought up Plaincatholics in the first place- not Max- Max came on shortly after- if that person (I foeget who) hadn't invited him on MD, he probably wouldn't be here- or else if they didn't invite him, it was a very strange coincidence time wise- but Max didn't originate the topic of Plain Catholics, one of your own did.
I would think if there was ANYONE Max would try to target to draw to Catholicism on here, it would be me- for obvious reasons- but there was not one ounce of that going on behind the scenes.

Anyone else get the impression he was in his personal messages to you?
Your outrage seems a bit misplaced, as you seem to be trying to win people over to Eastern Orthodoxy!

Just saying, there are standard missionary tactics. I should know, I was one for three years.

Once again, judge for yourself.

J.M.
I wasn't outraged J.M., I was responding to yours-with a very honest answer
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Sudsy
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Sudsy »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Dressing like and adopting some of the outward trappings of your "target" group are standards from the missionaries toolbox. It is called "contextualization" and we did it in the middle east big time. My family lived in a local style home (My wife was in a constant war with dust), the gals wore local clothes as much as they could, we did not drink or give the appearance of drinking alcohol and we hid our bacon carefully. We adopted many of the sleep and visiting patterns of the locals. Most missionaries from Hudson Taylor forward have done this to a greater or lesser extent.

Trying to take individuals out of the group and get into one-to-one dialogue is another recommended tactic, as it both relieves the one being proselytized from group pressure to conform, and prevents other, more nimble members of the group from shooting holes in your arguments. No successful missionary will ever attempt to evangelize someone in the presence of other members of the group. It just does not work well

Is our "Plain Catholic" a "missionary? Well if it quacks like a duck, has webbed feet and waddles, than it must be a.......duck.

J.M.
Sounds like how the apostle Paul became all things to all people to save some. Good idea to use in our culture too, don't ya think ? Fit in with similar yet modest 'outward trappings' and reach the unsaved. However, since we all are already brothers and sisters in the Lord, we are not trying to save anyone. Whether or not we move around in our beliefs within the family as convinced by others in the family, does it really matter as long as we remain In Christ ? Didn't the apostle Paul speak out against this kind of thing in the Corinthian church ?

As for my PM receipts todate no one is trying to convert me to their group within the family. Actually, I just shut off the ability to send me PMs as I don't care for how they can be used to slander other believers. I'm an open communion believer.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

Here is one more source of official Catholic teaching on baptism, ordered by Pope John Paul II in response to Catholics who were questioning traditional Catholic doctrine. It's completely consistent with the Catechism and Canon Law.

Instruction on Infant Baptism
The Principles of This Pastoral Practice

28. In the first place, it is important to recall that the Baptism of infants must be considered a serious duty. The questions which it poses to pastors can be settled only by faithful attention to the teaching and constant practice of the Church.

Concretely, pastoral practice regarding infant Baptism must be governed by two great principles, the second of which is subordinate to the first.
1) Baptism, which is necessary for salvation, is the sign and the means of God's prevenient love, which frees us from original sin and communicates to us a share in divine life. Considered in itself, the gift of these blessings to infants must not be delayed.

2) Assurances must be given that the gift thus granted can grow by an authentic education in the faith and Christian life, in order to fulfill the true meaning of the sacrament. As a rule, these assurances are to be given by the parents or close relatives, although various substitutions are possible within the Christian community. But if these assurances are not really serious there can be grounds for delaying the sacrament; and if they are certainly non-existent the sacrament should even be refused.
So the only reason given for delaying infant baptism is a situation where the child cannot be brought up in the faith. In the Catholic Church, baptism frees the child from the stain of original sin, and one of the reasons given for the doctrine is concern for the fate of infants who die without being baptized.

This document mentions Anabaptists:
One of the errors anathematized by the Council is the Anabaptist view that "it is better that the Baptism (of children) be omitted than to baptize in the faith of the Church alone those who do not believe by their own act."

8. The various regional councils and synods held after the Council of Trent taught with equal firmness the necessity of baptizing children. Pope Paul VI also solemnly recalled the centuries-old teaching on this matter, declaring that "Baptism should be conferred even on infants who are yet unable to commit any sin personally, in order that, having been born without supernatural grace, they may be born again of water and the Holy Spirit to divine life in Christ Jesus."
The Council mentioned above is the Council of Trent. Here is the entire canon from which he is quoting:
CANON XIII. If any one saith, that little children, for that they have not actual faith, are not, after having received baptism, to be reckoned amongst the faithful; and that, for this cause, they are to be rebaptized when they have attained to years of discretion; or, that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted, than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be baptized in the faith alone of the Church; let him be anathema.
The current Code of Canon Law is more polite about it, focusing on what Catholics believe and not on what they think of other Christians who disagree. But the basic doctrine has not changed.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:As I recall, and Max reemphasized to me in pm- his problem with you quoting excerpts out of context somewhat in the same way we can do with Scriptures is why he finds your posts misleading therefore when he saw you continued to do that he dropped dialogue- apparently there is quite a lot to the 'whole' as opposed to the excerpts to consider- for an accurate teaching
He seems to be talking about the quotes I provided below. A sentence like "the Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth" is about as clear as "thou shalt not commit adultery". Before posting, I read the complete sections they are part of to make sure that the context does not change the apparent meaning, and provide a link to the whole. I really am trying to be faithful to the meaning of the texts in context.

If I am missing something, providing the missing information would be more helpful than implying I am trying to mislead, and open communication would be more helpful than PMs so that we can look at it together and try to understand what is true. Open communication also is less likely to fall into slander. If there is anything else in the rest of Canon Law or the Catechism that changes the way these clear statements should be understood, it would be helpful to quote them in this thread. If he provided such information in PMs, it would be helpful to see the information here.
Bootstrap wrote:But the Catechism says it is not up to the individual family to participate when they are ready. It says this:
Catholic Catechism wrote:1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.
Catholic Catechism wrote:the Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
This is even more explicit in Canon Law, which says infant baptism is obligatory:
Catholic Canon Law wrote:Can. 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.

§2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.
The Catechism also tells us that baptism cannot be repeated, ruling out adult believer baptism for those baptized as infants:
Catholic Catechism wrote:1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
This is equally clear in Canon Law:
Catholic Canon Law wrote:Can. 845 §1. Since the sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and orders imprint a character, they cannot be repeated.
I think that's fundamentally different from the teaching of Schleitheim on Baptism:
Schleitheim Confession wrote:I. Observe concerning baptism: Baptism shall be given to all those who have learned repentance and amendment of life, and who believe truly that their sins are taken away by Christ, and to all those who walk in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and wish to be buried with Him in death, so that they may be resurrected with Him and to all those who with this significance request it (baptism) of us and demand it for themselves. This excludes all infant baptism, the highest and chief abomination of the Pope. In this you have the foundation and testimony of the apostles. Matt. 28, Mark 16, Acts 2, 8, 16, 19. This we wish to hold simply, yet firmly and with assurance.
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Robert
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Robert »

MaxPC wrote:Wayne, thank you for your email and will gladly answer any further questions you might have via that mode. At this point, this is my last post in this thread. Thank you to all who responded off list. I appreciate your kindness and your generosity in keeping this forum congenial.
While this is your choice to make, the consequences is that the little that is available to others who may actually be interested will mostly find MennoNet threads that question if it is a real thing or not. This will throw doubt on any real movement and will make others shy away, even if there is a legitimate group who identifies as a plain Catholic. Maybe that is not an issue for you, but most western cultures use the internet to search for information and having clear, honest information should be considered a benefit. Even the Amish realize this i.e. Amish Mafia.
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by MaxPC »

Robert wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Wayne, thank you for your email and will gladly answer any further questions you might have via that mode. At this point, this is my last post in this thread. Thank you to all who responded off list. I appreciate your kindness and your generosity in keeping this forum congenial.
While this is your choice to make, the consequences is that the little that is available to others who may actually be interested will mostly find MennoNet threads that question if it is a real thing or not. This will throw doubt on any real movement and will make others shy away, even if there is a legitimate group who identifies as a plain Catholic. Maybe that is not an issue for you, but most western cultures use the internet to search for information and having clear, honest information should be considered a benefit. Even the Amish realize this i.e. Amish Mafia.
Thank you for your concern, Robert. Those who are genuinely interested in the truth are mature enough to contact me and the Plain Catholics directly as they have always done. Those who are simply trying to stir trouble and gossip have no interest in living a life of authentic Christian discipleship and nothing I say will change that. They will simply ignore reason and continue to twist and manipulate the truth, just as has happened to Anabaptists and other followers of Christ down through the ages. And just as assuredly, God will guide us and protect us. If folks need more info, they know where to find me here. Or they can talk directly to the PCs answering questions coming into the website. God bless you.
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Robert
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Robert »

MaxPC wrote:Those who are genuinely interested in the truth are mature enough to contact me and the Plain Catholics directly as they have always done. Those who are simply trying to stir trouble and gossip have no interest in living a life of authentic Christian discipleship and nothing I say will change that. They will simply ignore reason and continue to twist and manipulate the truth, just as has happened to Anabaptists and other followers of Christ down through the ages.
There are some from both camps, but that philosophy is very black and white. Most people are more in the gray areas. I have heard it said that it takes a person, on average, to have 7 positive contacts with the Gospel and those who follow it before they will make a commitment themselves.

Sometimes, a person exploring lightly plants a seed that God will water and bring growth from much later.
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Josh
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by Josh »

Has anyone here (besides MaxPC themself) met an Plain Catholic?

I am thinking that someone, somewhere, sometime, must have met one.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Josh wrote:Has anyone here (besides MaxPC themself) met an Plain Catholic?

I am thinking that someone, somewhere, sometime, must have met one.
The only thing in my experience that could even be close to a plain Catholic (little p) would be The Little Portion hermitage and it's members here in AR.
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MaxPC
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Re: Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

Post by MaxPC »

Robert wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Those who are genuinely interested in the truth are mature enough to contact me and the Plain Catholics directly as they have always done. Those who are simply trying to stir trouble and gossip have no interest in living a life of authentic Christian discipleship and nothing I say will change that. They will simply ignore reason and continue to twist and manipulate the truth, just as has happened to Anabaptists and other followers of Christ down through the ages.
There are some from both camps, but that philosophy is very black and white. Most people are more in the gray areas. I have heard it said that it takes a person, on average, to have 7 positive contacts with the Gospel and those who follow it before they will make a commitment themselves.

Sometimes, a person exploring lightly plants a seed that God will water and bring growth from much later.
Yes it is. YMMV. :lol:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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