Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
silentreader
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

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Bootstrap wrote:
silentreader wrote:In my opinion, that is what is at the heart of Christian liberty, the 'have to' becomes 'want to'.
I think that's half of what Sattler said in this section. The other half is the focus on love of God and neighbor at the heart of everything:
Michael Sattler wrote:“Want to” obedience is not the opposite of “have to” obedience, as it might appear, but is better and higher. And therefore let him who is obeying because he “has to” seek for the better—the “I want to” obedience. In no way should he have an “I have to do this” attitude.

“Have to” obedience is Mosaic and produces Pharisees and scribes. “Want to” obedience is Christ-like and makes children of God. The “have to” is either occupied with the ceremonies which Moses commanded or with those which people themselves have invented. The “want to” is focused on the love of God and one’s neighbor; yet he also submits himself to the ceremonies for the sake of those who serve because they “have to,” so that he may instruct them in that which is better and lead them to “want to” obedience.
But I wonder how that relates to Sattler's rejection of the Catholic ceremonies which most Christians accepted. He certainly was not willing to accept some of the ceremonies he believed people themselves had invented.

God wants our hearts and our desires, not just external obedience. And he wants our hearts and desires to be deeply rooted in the God kind of love.
Slightly different perspective, same underlying idea, I think.

2 Corinthians 3:1-6

1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. 3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Bootstrap wrote:
silentreader wrote:In my opinion, that is what is at the heart of Christian liberty, the 'have to' becomes 'want to'.
I think that's half of what Sattler said in this section. The other half is the focus on love of God and neighbor at the heart of everything:
Michael Sattler wrote:“Want to” obedience is not the opposite of “have to” obedience, as it might appear, but is better and higher. And therefore let him who is obeying because he “has to” seek for the better—the “I want to” obedience. In no way should he have an “I have to do this” attitude.

“Have to” obedience is Mosaic and produces Pharisees and scribes. “Want to” obedience is Christ-like and makes children of God. The “have to” is either occupied with the ceremonies which Moses commanded or with those which people themselves have invented. The “want to” is focused on the love of God and one’s neighbor; yet he also submits himself to the ceremonies for the sake of those who serve because they “have to,” so that he may instruct them in that which is better and lead them to “want to” obedience.
But I wonder how that relates to Sattler's rejection of the Catholic ceremonies which most Christians accepted. He certainly was not willing to accept some of the ceremonies he believed people themselves had invented.
You have to take this in the context of where Sattler was at the time and what body of believers he was relating to - he was addressing others who had come out of the Roman religion. A good view of the evolving congregation(s) to which Sattler is addressing his remarks, and the ceremonies he is referring to can be seen in the 7+7 articles of Schleitheim.
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Sattler doesn't address the "don't have to's", which I think are much more common in Protestantism.

What I find interesting about Sattler's two kinds of obedience is that he was writing at the very genesis of the Anabaptist movement, to first generation believers, not to 10'th generation Mennonites. Obedience to the regulations of the church is a pretty settled part of ethnic Mennonite (and Amish and Hutterite) culture. The situation he was looking at was one where a person recognized what Jesus commanded but did not have his heart in doing it (Like seed that fell among thorns), or the person embraced the teachings of Jesus hungrily, as "good news" even unto death.

A brother at the Bruderhof expressed it well when he counseled my wife and I concerning certain biblical Anabaptist practices: "If you can't do it to the joy and delight of your soul then you should not do it at all." That's the difference between a rich ruler who went away sorrowfully and a height challenged tax collector to whose house salvation came one day.
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

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Wayne in Maine wrote:What I find interesting about Sattler's two kinds of obedience is that he was writing at the very genesis of the Anabaptist movement, to first generation believers, not to 10'th generation Mennonites. Obedience to the regulations of the church is a pretty settled part of ethnic Mennonite (and Amish and Hutterite) culture.
I'm not at all sure whether Sattler thinks of obedience in terms of regulations of the church.

In Hutterite teachings, obedience and Gelassenheit are to the brotherhood, not directly to God, but I don't know if Sattler thought that way. I do know that many plain Mennonites seem to read Sattler through that lens (as you can see in other posts in this thread).
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

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We are often reminded that "Obedience is better than sacrifice" and this obedience is to God and the church. In Matt. 16 vs 19 we read "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." From this we deduct that disobedience to the church is actually disobedience to God.
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

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Hats Off wrote:We are often reminded that "Obedience is better than sacrifice" and this obedience is to God and the church. In Matt. 16 vs 19 we read "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." From this we deduct that disobedience to the church is actually disobedience to God.
And yet the early Anabaptists disobeyed the church of their day, forming their own church when they were kicked out. Was that disobedience to God? Would they have seen it that way? Sometimes I think people are called to be prophets to their churches. Does anyone have Sattler quotes to tell us how he saw it?

For most things, I think you don't want to be part of a church if you don't think they align with what God is doing, but I get uncomfortable when a pastor or a church seems to be putting themselves in God's place. I don't think it's ever legitimate to have just "have to" obedience to God, but sometimes I have "have to" obedience to my church simply because I think they are wrong, but the issue is not so important it's worth making a fuss over.
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

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Next section of the document:
Michael Sattler wrote:The Reason for the Mosaic Law

If a man wants to escape from sin, he must first hate it. And if he would hate it, he must first personally know it. And if he would know it, there must be something to stir up and make known his hidden sin. Now, it is Law or Scripture which does this: for as much as the Law demands, that much more the man turns from God to that which he has done, justifies himself by his ceremonial accomplishments, and clings to them as to his treasure. The greater his love for his accomplishments becomes, the more and the greater will grow his hatred for God and for his neighbor. For the more and the closer a man clings to the creature, the farther he is from God. The more he desires the creature, the less he will have of the Creator.

Moreover the law gives occasion to people to depart farther from God, not because of itself (for it is good), but because of the sin which is in man. This is also the reason why Paul says that the law was given: that it might increase sin, that sin might thereby become known. Yea, the law is the strength of sin and therefore it is just like the “have to” obedience, that is, obedience to law, which leads people into the most intense hatred of God and of one’s neighbor. Therefore “want to” obedience—love—is a sure way through which man escapes from such hatred and receives the love of God and of one’s neighbor. Therefore as one (having to do something) administers death, the other (wanting to do something) administers life. The one is the Old Testament; the other, the New.
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

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Hats Off wrote:We are often reminded that "Obedience is better than sacrifice" and this obedience is to God and the church. In Matt. 16 vs 19 we read "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." From this we deduct that disobedience to the church is actually disobedience to God.
I'm familiar with that teaching, and...

1 Samuel 15:22-23King James Version (KJV)
22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

...is often referenced. Saul's sin was grievous, and I am reluctant to put it on the same level as non-compliance with preferred applications in church standards. It is, though, spiritually unhealthy for us to scorn our God ordained church leaders even at that level.
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

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Bootstrap wrote:
Hats Off wrote:We are often reminded that "Obedience is better than sacrifice" and this obedience is to God and the church. In Matt. 16 vs 19 we read "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." From this we deduct that disobedience to the church is actually disobedience to God.
And yet the early Anabaptists disobeyed the church of their day, forming their own church when they were kicked out. Was that disobedience to God? Would they have seen it that way? Sometimes I think people are called to be prophets to their churches. Does anyone have Sattler quotes to tell us how he saw it?

For most things, I think you don't want to be part of a church if you don't think they align with what God is doing, but I get uncomfortable when a pastor or a church seems to be putting themselves in God's place. I don't think it's ever legitimate to have just "have to" obedience to God, but sometimes I have "have to" obedience to my church simply because I think they are wrong, but the issue is not so important it's worth making a fuss over.
No, if the church is obviously wrong, we would be wrong to be obedient to it, we must be obedient to God first.
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Re: Two Kinds of Obedience – Michael Sattler

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Hats Off wrote:No, if the church is obviously wrong, we would be wrong to be obedient to it, we must be obedient to God first.
OK, and beyond that, it may be largely a matter of emphasis. Except in some churches where it isn't, at least in practice.

But I'm still curious how Michael Sattler saw this, whether he discussed obedience mainly with respect to God or with respect to the brotherhood. I suspect the former, but I could easily be wrong.
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