Church leadership: term limits

[Gene]

There is perhaps a rough accountability that occurs in the scenario described above, a sort of capitalistic sort of justice wherein the unfit fail completely. The collateral damage is immense in some cases, I think, and is to be avoided if possible. The principle of term limits is found in the doctrine of expulsion. Holding that the failure of scripture to mention something specifically precludes its adoption in order to achieve some particular Biblical principle leaves us with slavery and polygamy since neither is directly prohibited, though "no man can serve two masters" comes close on the second point.

In the event some leader begins to think himself god of sorts, term limits can work to implement the principle that we ought not think higher of ourselves than is warranted. Some things God left us to figure out on our own, adapting policy to time and place as is appropriate.

[Wayne in Maine]

Terms limits as understood in the political system, that is, an absolute definite end to serving in a particular capacity, probably not. Endless assignment without congregational evaluation is not good either. Ordination does not impart perfection. Accountability, to actually mean anything must carry the very real possibility of losing one's position. It is essential to have forms of confidentially assessing the thoughts and seeking the guidance of the congregants on the ministry of any individual. For SS teachers and every other non ordained position this is accomplished through elections following specified terms of service. Why would we think ordained persons are immune to error and thus need no accountability?

I don't think the assumption is whether or not they are immune to error, but what does the Bible say about "term limits"? There is always accountability, whether or not you have term limits, if there is a proper relationship in the Body.

The last phrase of the honorable Mr. Donner's comment contains an immense variable. One nearly insurmountable in practicality. Does one assume that leadership has the direction of God in a way lay people do not, as some maintain? if so, complaints or concerns voiced by the great unwashed are easily dismissed as the caterwauling of the indicted, as it were. Or simply a jockeying for political, in an ecclesiastical context, power. Or dismissed as congregationalism, the term being used as a pejorative, as democracy for the megalomaniac always represents a threat. There is probably not a congregation anywhere with a "proper relationship" especially so if such conditions depend upon the integrity of the humanity of which such an idyllic gathering consists. Dependence upon frail personalities to achieve accountability will fail in the long term. We live in a fallen world.

Well said, and in my personal experience with more than one "leader" (including the elder of the Bruderhof Communities) right on the mark.

There is, too often, the assumption that the church, and its leaders, are being lead by the Holy Spirit, but that is (I assert) rarely, very rarely, true. So reasonable, rational organizational and governance methods must be (humbly) considered.

[ohio jones]

Holding that the failure of scripture to mention something specifically precludes its adoption in order to achieve some particular Biblical principle leaves us with slavery and p*lyg*my since neither is directly prohibited, though "no man can serve two masters" comes close on the second point.

The phrase actually addresses both points, of course.

I would not have predicted that MN would encounter LC's law before Godwin's law, though, and so soon in its short existence. Or from such an unexpected source. IMO, the P-word is best left in the smoldering ruins of the MD archive.

[Gene]

Holding that the failure of scripture to mention something specifically precludes its adoption in order to achieve some particular Biblical principle leaves us with slavery and p*lyg*my since neither is directly prohibited, though "no man can serve two masters" comes close on the second point.

The phrase actually addresses both points, of course.

I would not have predicted that MN would encounter LC's law before Godwin's law, though, and so soon in its short existence. Or from such an unexpected source. IMO, the P-word is best left in the smoldering ruins of the MD archive.

As opposed to some or maybe just one, whose memory is in the bombed out ruins of the predecessor to the current forum, I am certainly not an advocate of what appears to be considered a vulgarity if not a profanity. Merely making a point by invoking things reasonable persons unanimously consider to be beyond the pale .

But you need not be a Nazi about it.

[Josh]

There is perhaps a rough accountability that occurs in the scenario described above, a sort of capitalistic sort of justice wherein the unfit fail completely. The collateral damage is immense in some cases, I think, and is to be avoided if possible. The principle of term limits is found in the doctrine of expulsion. Holding that the failure of scripture to mention something specifically precludes its adoption in order to achieve some particular Biblical principle leaves us with slavery and polygamy since neither is directly prohibited, though "no man can serve two masters" comes close on the second point

One of the more tiresome ways I have been hearing this argument explained, lately, is that the Bible isn't a very good source for moral authority since the Bible doesn't teach that consent is the basis for sexual morality. As a former liberal-progressive, I find much of where the liberal-progressive alignment has gone to be troubling - especially the assertions that the Bible is almost an evil book since it does not uphold tenets like consent based morality.

[mike]

Terms limits as understood in the political system, that is, an absolute definite end to serving in a particular capacity, probably not. Endless assignment without congregational evaluation is not good either. Ordination does not impart perfection. Accountability, to actually mean anything must carry the very real possibility of losing one's position. It is essential to have forms of confidentially assessing the thoughts and seeking the guidance of the congregants on the ministry of any individual. For SS teachers and every other non ordained position this is accomplished through elections following specified terms of service. Why would we think ordained persons are immune to error and thus need no accountability?

I don't think the assumption is whether or not they are immune to error, but what does the Bible say about "term limits"? There is always accountability, whether or not you have term limits, if there is a proper relationship in the Body.

I think these two posts represent the best argument and counter-argument so far. To re-phrase:

Pro: Term limits provide accountability for leaders. They are a routine way for the thoughts, discernment, and guidance of the brotherhood to be confidentially assessed.

Con: Term limits aren't taught or exemplified in scripture.

I think that term limits could be one way of applying the biblical principles of accountability, servant leadership, and the discernment of the church. The Bible doesn't specify precisely how leaders are to be appointed on an ongoing basis (there are examples of drawing of lots and of apostles directly appointing), so I believe churches are free to choose leaders using various methods. Similarly, the Bible does have some things to day about elders being rebuked (with witnesses present) but does not specify how leaders should be kept accountable on an ongoing basis. I don't think that term limits violate biblical teaching, although they could bring some problems; and I think that they can be a way to apply the teachings of Jesus and the apostles regarding leadership. Jesus taught that leaders should be servants, and in too many cases they are much more like lords than servants. Church leadership should be less like a dynasty (supreme court justice) and more like a term of service (president) in my opinion (hat tip to RZehr).

[RZehr]

I don't have a lot of time to post, but I want to bring up the concept of eldership. My sneaking suspicion is that eldership may have had to to with experience and age. In this sense, how do you term limit experience and age? Term limits seem to me to be a work around needed because we have a leadership system that is not true to design.

I don't believe that there is only one true way to design leadership, but we should realize that the further we move from a certain product, then we do have to adjust the recipe accordingly.

[mike]

I don't have a lot of time to post, but I want to bring up the concept of eldership. My sneaking suspicion is that eldership may have had to to with experience and age. In this sense, how do you term limit experience and age? Term limits seem to me to be a work around needed because we have a leadership system that is not true to design.

I don't believe that there is only one true way to design leadership, but we should realize that the further we move from a certain product, then we do have to adjust the recipe accordingly.

I concur with your suspicion. Experience ("not a novice") is one of the qualifications of an overseer/bishop. However it is only one of many. I think age is a factor, and that "elder" does imply something other than a young person. Reaching the end of a term may be a good way for an older leader to retire.

[RZehr]

I'm not against a retirement age, or an age where they are no longer taking the lead on decisions. I'm for that. But I don't think I would be comfortable with a system where 35 year olds get elected for 5 years or so, and then have reelection. I'm for ordinations, not elections.

If, with termed pastors, you end up with a pastors parish or eldership board, then that power/control/dictatorship may only be transferred instead of eliminated.

[mike]

I'm for ordinations, not elections.

What in your opinion is the difference?

or·dain
1.make (someone) a priest or minister; confer holy orders on.
synonyms: confer holy orders on, appoint, anoint, consecrate, install, invest, induct
"the Church voted to ordain women"
2.order or decree (something) officially.
"equal punishment was ordained for the two crimes"
synonyms: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay/set down, establish, dictate, legislate, prescribe, pronounce
"she ordained that anyone found hunting in the forest must pay a fine"

e·lect
1.choose (someone) to hold public office or some other position by voting.
"the members who were elected to the committee"
synonyms: vote for, vote in, return, cast one's vote for; choose, pick, select
"a new president was elected"