Whether it is correct or not, I think that conservative Anabaptists typically see paid pastors who are basically employees of the church as not having the authority that a biblical elder would have. The concept of plural ministry is based on Paul's instruction to Timothy to ordain elders in every church. It would seem that a team of elders would keep an accountability among the leaders, but I don't think it always works that way. The problem with having a plural ministry or a team of elders in my opinion is that they can fairly easily become a ruling body that makes all the decisions without really involving the brotherhood except as a rubber stamp.gcdonner wrote:I was not amongst the leadership in the church I was referring to, but only a part of the brotherhood... I have been in leadership in other places, where there wasn't an issue, since the leaders were not "above" those in the pews and we shared responsibilities together. That is real "plural" ministry. When preachers start using the pulpit as a whipping post it is time for them to step down, IMO.Gene wrote:Whether the appointment is for life or not, how are the candidates for ordination selected? Election may still be used. Even in the event of use of the lot are not the candidates selected by some sense of the voice of the congregation? More to the point is what system of accountability is in effect after installation in a particular office? Review by peers alone, in other words, fellow members of leadership, is akin to a government agency investigating itself; there is strong bias toward a finding of probity among those like yourself, in this case other ordained individuals. We ignorant uncivilized savages in the pews may see things quite differently, but absent a systematic congregational review of credentials that actually means something, pretty much the most one can do is fume privately. Or leave. There ought be another choice. A recognition of human frailty demands it. It seems only a leader bereft of Christian humility would resist it.
Church leadership: term limits
Re: Church leadership: term limits
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
- gcdonner
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
I wasn't thinking of paid pastors, how did that enter the conversation? I have never been a paid pastor myself...mike wrote:Whether it is correct or not, I think that conservative Anabaptists typically see paid pastors who are basically employees of the church as not having the authority that a biblical elder would have. The concept of plural ministry is based on Paul's instruction to Timothy to ordain elders in every church. It would seem that a team of elders would keep an accountability among the leaders, but I don't think it always works that way. The problem with having a plural ministry or a team of elders in my opinion is that they can fairly easily become a ruling body that makes all the decisions without really involving the brotherhood except as a rubber stamp.gcdonner wrote: I was not amongst the leadership in the church I was referring to, but only a part of the brotherhood... I have been in leadership in other places, where there wasn't an issue, since the leaders were not "above" those in the pews and we shared responsibilities together. That is real "plural" ministry. When preachers start using the pulpit as a whipping post it is time for them to step down, IMO.
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Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed
rightly dividing the word of truth.
rightly dividing the word of truth.
Re: Church leadership: term limits
I'm sorry, I was thinking out loud with that point, not meaning to imply that you were.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
I have to say I like the system of men's meetings with just a few ordained men (typically 1 or 2 deacons, 2 ministers, and 1 bishop) better than the system of a fairly large board of elders (typically 5-6 "elders") then with a senior pastor who functions similar to a CEO. With a board of elders, the rest of the brotherhood devolves into just thinking and behaving like laity and does not see themselves as being empowered with much authority at all.
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
Am enjoying the insights here.
From the experience of my Church, both approaches have to deal with flawed humans who need to be held accountable to the task and the Walk.
There is no easy answer. Both approaches require constant vigilance on the part of the individual, the leadership, and the membership.
1 Timothy 3:2
1 Peter 5:8
From the experience of my Church, both approaches have to deal with flawed humans who need to be held accountable to the task and the Walk.
There is no easy answer. Both approaches require constant vigilance on the part of the individual, the leadership, and the membership.
1 Timothy 3:2
1 Peter 5:8
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
Intriguingly enough, we have a set retirement age - 65 at play in our congregation. Our lead pastor (bishop), is nominated by our leadership team and serves for a 5 year term (pending an affirmation vote from the congregation). To date, this means that we have had our most recent lead pastor serve a total of 18 years in that role, prior to being ineligible due to being near the age of 65. Ask me in 200 years whether it worked or not.
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- Josh
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
thebluffs, what type of church is it?thebluffs wrote:Intriguingly enough, we have a set retirement age - 65 at play in our congregation. Our lead pastor (bishop), is nominated by our leadership team and serves for a 5 year term (pending an affirmation vote from the congregation). To date, this means that we have had our most recent lead pastor serve a total of 18 years in that role, prior to being ineligible due to being near the age of 65. Ask me in 200 years whether it worked or not.
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
Its an unaffiliated Mennonite church- I'm not certain how to typify it (BMA- ish perhaps). Pastors are ordained from the laity and serve as bivocational pastors.
We use the term limit for our lead pastor primarily because of concerns that we have seen with issues with control in situations where one is ordained bishop for life, just as we have set the retirement age at 65, not because we don't value the counsel and wisdom of older men, but rather because we want to ensure that our congregational expectations are commensurate with their abilities.
We use the term limit for our lead pastor primarily because of concerns that we have seen with issues with control in situations where one is ordained bishop for life, just as we have set the retirement age at 65, not because we don't value the counsel and wisdom of older men, but rather because we want to ensure that our congregational expectations are commensurate with their abilities.
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- Josh
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
Does "bivocational" mean they are paid something like a part time salary?
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
No, they are expected to support themselves and their families via regular income. The congregation shares a love gift 4x per year that usually works out to about 4,000 per annum per pastor.
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