Swiss Brethren?

[MaxPC]

Thank you. This helpful. When were ordnung(s) written and implemented?

Dress was not as much of an issue in the first centuries of Anabaptistism. There was one style of clothes for the ruling and priestly class and another for the working class. Swiss and Dutch tailors were warned against making clothes in the style of the nobles for the common people but aside from the Amish not allowing buttons, clothes were not a big issue. In those days there were matters of much greater concern.

Thorstein Veblen in his book "The Theory of the Leisure Class" published in 1899 talks of how significant changes came about following the Second Industrial Revolution.

Veblen used conspicuous consumption to depict the upper class that formed in the 19th century as a result of the Second Industrial Revolution. With the growth of living standards and the emergence of the middle class during the 20th century this phenomenon appeared in far more households and individuals whose consumption pattern is governed by demonstrative assets, rather than actual, practical utility.

This trend also applied to clothing which resulted in more attention given to clothes by the descendants of the Swiss Brethern who did not want to be seen as part of the upper class.

[Hats Off]

Traditionally the ordnung was not written or at least not for public use. It evolved over the years as needed to deal with relevant issues. Our conference report, as we call it, can have slight changes every year.

[Josh]

There is nobody who runs around identifying themselves as “Sweizerbruderen”.

Now that would be an interesting name for a new congregation!

Yes it would!

Any books/treatises that are recommended reading on Swiss Brethren and their descendents?

Which groups descended from the Swiss Brethren are seen as maintaining their original identity of separation from the world in their: confession of faith (I'm assuming Schleitheim but I could be wrong); and in plain dress. Of course they wouldn't be called Swiss Brethren - or maybe they would.

Back in the 1600s the Swiss Brethren did not have “plain dress” as their identity. In Golden Apples in Silver Bowls, I can’t recall reading anything about specifically plain attire.

[Josh]

Old Order Mennonites and Amish are descendants of the Swiss Brethern but have adopted the Dutch Dordrecht Confession of Faith. It is more comprehensive and a century newer than the Schleitheim Confession.

Are there books/treatises that you would recommend?

Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.

With Catholic theology? These confessions were drafted in reaction to Catholic theology and surrounded the formation of rebelling against and leaving the Catholic fold.

[MaxPC]

Traditionally the ordnung was not written or at least not for public use. It evolved over the years as needed to deal with relevant issues. Our conference report, as we call it, can have slight changes every year.

Fascinating. Our own theology has been clarified over the years, especially in defining the non-negotiables regarding God and Salvation. Nothing is ever "static" in churches that are alive and breathing. In our case, we're trying to do a better job of definitions: negotiables and non-negotiables. There's always room for improvement in fidelity to God.

So if the ordnungs weren't written, did the fellowships memorize them through oral tradition?

[Wayne in Maine]

Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.

I'm quite curious about this because both are quite distinctly anti-Rome in a broad sense and in many details. Could you quote which portions of Schleitheim and Dordrecht your "plan Catholics" share with the early Anabaptists?

[Bootstrap]

So if the ordnungs weren't written, did the fellowships memorize them through oral tradition?

Does anyone talk about it in the plural, "the ordnungs"?

Is this description accurate?

The Amish blueprint for expected behavior, called the Ordnung, regulates private, public, and ceremonial life. Ordnung does not translate readily into English. Sometimes rendered as ordinance or discipline, the Ordnung is best thought of as an ordering of the whole way of life ... a code of conduct which the church maintains by tradition rather than by systematic or explicit rules. A member noted: The order is not written down. The people just know it, that's all. Rather than a packet of rules to memorize, the Ordnung is the understood behavior by which the Amish are expected to live. In the same way that the rules of grammar are learned by children, so the Ordnung, the grammar of order, is learned by Amish youth. The Ordnung evolved gradually over the decades as the church sought to strike a delicate balance between tradition and change. Specific details of the Ordnung vary across church districts and settlements.

— Donald B. Kraybill, The Riddle of Amish Culture

I don't think they memorize the words in words, they just learn the way of life and know what is expected.

Of course, the early Swiss Brethren did not have this. They were still inventing the way they would live together.

[Bootstrap]

Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.

With Catholic theology? These confessions were drafted in reaction to Catholic theology and surrounded the formation of rebelling against and leaving the Catholic fold.

There are only 7 articles in Schleitheim. 2 articles are explicit about opposing Catholicism. Some of the others are not compatible with Catholicism.

And Schleitheim explicitly mentions the Pope and the Catholic Church (as well as Protestant churches).

This excludes all infant baptism, the highest and chief abomination of the Pope.

From this we should learn that everything which is not united with our God and Christ cannot be other than an abomination which we should shun and flee from. By this is meant all Catholic and Protestant works and church services, meetings and church attendance, drinking houses, civic affairs, the oaths sworn in unbelief and other things of that kind, which are highly regarded by the world and yet are carried on in flat contradiction to the command of God, in accordance with all the unrighteousness which is in the world. From all these things we shall be separated and have no part with them for they are nothing but an abomination, and they are the cause of our being hated before our Christ Jesus, Who has set us free from the slavery of the flesh and fitted us for the service of God through the Spirit Whom He has given us.

I am not as anti-Catholic as the Schleitheim Confession, I am quite happy to accept many Catholics as brethren. But I don't think it's helpful to pretend that there are not significant differences, and I think we can be brethren and still be clear about what these differences are.

[MaxPC]

Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.

I'm quite curious about this because both are quite distinctly anti-Rome in a broad sense and in many details. Could you quote which portions of Schleitheim and Dordrecht your "plan Catholics" share with the early Anabaptists?

Wayne, I'll be glad to answer your question off list via PM in order to keep this thread on topic. PM me if you're interested.

Returning to the topic of the Swiss Brethren: it's my understanding that from the earliest days, the men did not wear mustaches because of the military custom of wearing one. Is this true? If so, what are some other externals practiced by the early Swiss Brethren? Did they pay taxes? Salute or not salute political and military leaders or flags?

[ohio jones]

Both the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions share common theological ground with our theology. Both are excellent.

I'm quite curious about this because both are quite distinctly anti-Rome in a broad sense and in many details. Could you quote which portions of Schleitheim and Dordrecht your "plan Catholics" share with the early Anabaptists?

Wayne, I'll be glad to answer your question off list via PM in order to keep this thread on topic. PM me if you're interested.

Wayne isn't the only one curious about this. If as the OP of this thread you feel it's off topic, a new thread would be fine.

Returning to the topic of the Swiss Brethren: it's my understanding that from the earliest days, the men did not wear mustaches because of the military custom of wearing one. Is this true? If so, what are some other externals practiced by the early Swiss Brethren? Did they pay taxes? Salute or not salute political and military leaders or flags?

I'm not aware of objections to mustaches until the 19th century. Does anyone know of sources earlier than this?