Swiss Brethren?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
Posts: 5856
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by Sudsy »

temporal1 wrote:
Sudsy wrote: .. Curious Boot, when was the last time Max responded to any of your posts ? It seems you often point out where he is incorrect and Max has decided to never refer to any of your input. Do you think this war will ever end ? Do I have this observation correct or no ?
not that you asked me. :P
but, this is an interesting phenomena. i don't think of it as a war.
max doesn't read boot's posts (at least, not as a regular thing) .. boot doesn't read others' posts (to generalize+paraphrase, as Robert recently noted, but others have noticed) .. so, it's a circular thing.

as i presume both are mortal, so, indeed, one day, it will end. :mrgreen:
carry on. :blah:
I have wondered if something like this was still going on between the two of us also. In the past some of my posts probably reflected we were warring or staying at arms length to keep from warring. To some extent there are foes and friends here and unofficial groups formed as I watch how we interact. I'm hoping that if and when I say something to be put on a foe list that I will be told in a PM with why so I can learn to be a better participant. Sometimes my direct ways can be offensive as I have been told and I'm trying to share my thoughts without this happening. Some days are better than others.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Sudsy
Posts: 5856
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Curious Boot, when was the last time Max responded to any of your posts ? It seems you often point out where he is incorrect and Max has decided to never refer to any of your input. Do you think this war will ever end ? Do I have this observation correct or no ?
You're right, he doesn't respond to my posts, or to anyone who corrects things he says. But I think it's important that many of the things he says be corrected, even if he does not believe he should be accountable to anyone. It's not just me, he gets belligerent when anyone corrects things he says.

From my side, I don't think I am engaging in warfare. Most of us correct each other and respond appropriately here, we admit mistakes when we get facts wrong, we apologize from time to time. If we want to have any chance of discussing things that are true, that's important. But I do think that I'm carefully pointing out falsehoods so that they do not become "established truth" through repetition.

And if I'm wrong about any of these things, I hope Max will correct me with some evidence.
temporal1 wrote:max doesn't read boot's posts (at least, not as a regular thing) .. boot doesn't read others' posts
I don't think either of those things are true. In fact, I think that my responses to people's posts usually show that I have read them, and am responding very specifically to what they said. And it's obvious from Max's posts that he is often responding to things I have said, though he refuses to acknowledge that I exist.
Boot, I do appreciate your posts and your insight in many areas. However, I don't think you realize just how much of what Max posts, you challenge to be true. It seems obvious to me that his methods of responding or not responding to questions, really irritates you. It often reads to me, 'Beware everyone, Max tells lies'. Just saying what it looks like to me from the side lines. Why not just stay out of any threads Max creates and let him do his thing ? I think that is what others do to some of my threads rather than challenging what I say to be truth or correct. Well, I got that off my chest and do appreciate you both for various contributions you provide that makes this forum interesting.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by MaxPC »

ken_sylvania wrote:Max, is this correct? Are the excommunications you referred to earlier in this thread simply "automatic excommunications."

I would say the concept of "automatic excommunication" is rather foreign to Anabaptist theology.

I suppose that if "automatic excommunication" is really a Roman Catholic thing, then nobody can really know for sure if another individual is a member of the RC church (that other person might have been automatically excommunicated and nobody but the excommunicated person would even know it).
Yes there are automatic excommunications. There are also due process excommunications in which warnings and counsel is given in the hope of guiding the person back to the faith. The politicians who've been excommunicated received it under the due process approach. Both approaches also offer a means of repentance to return to communion. Both processes aren't advertised. Those involved in the process usually know about it. Some Bishops have notified those politicians via letter and Catholic media that they will not be given communion. I'm sure politicians who depend heavily on "Catholic voters" haven't advertised it for obvious reasons.

Back to the Swiss Brethren: I'm pleased to see how they refused to engage in violence. When emotions run high, that temptation to attack is very strong. In that aspect, it reminds me of the Christians in the Egypt and the Levant today who are being martyred by radical Islamists. Before the knife falls they speak the name of Jesus in order to die with His name on their lips.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
Wayne in Maine
Posts: 1195
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:52 am
Location: Slightly above sea level, in the dear old State of Maine
Affiliation: Yielded

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

MaxPC wrote: Back to the Swiss Brethren: I'm pleased to see how they refused to engage in violence...
The same cannot be said of the Romanists, who have never been encouraged to follow Jesus' command to do good to one's enemies. The Swiss Brethren were brutalized violently by Rome's minions. Even Romanists have been brutalized by other Romanists - because Rome never told them to take the words of Jesus seriously.
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4578
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by Neto »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
MaxPC wrote: Back to the Swiss Brethren: I'm pleased to see how they refused to engage in violence...
The same cannot be said of the Romanists, who have never been encouraged to follow Jesus' command to do good to one's enemies. The Swiss Brethren were brutalized violently by Rome's minions. Even Romanists have been brutalized by other Romanists - because Rome never told them to take the words of Jesus seriously.
My impression was that the Swiss Brethren suffered more at the hands of the Protestants than from the "Romanists". The Dutch 'anabaptists' (or 'the baptism minded', as they were called), on the other hand, fell under the control of the Catholic church more than that of the Protestants, because Spain controlled the Netherlands during that period of time. I think that there was thus additional reason for brutality - my impression is that some of it was political, not just religious. The local governmental leaders were under pressure to turn over the 'heretics', or they themselves were at risk of punishment. (Just my impressions from reading Martyrs' Mirror.)
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
User avatar
Wayne in Maine
Posts: 1195
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:52 am
Location: Slightly above sea level, in the dear old State of Maine
Affiliation: Yielded

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Neto wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
MaxPC wrote: Back to the Swiss Brethren: I'm pleased to see how they refused to engage in violence...
The same cannot be said of the Romanists, who have never been encouraged to follow Jesus' command to do good to one's enemies. The Swiss Brethren were brutalized violently by Rome's minions. Even Romanists have been brutalized by other Romanists - because Rome never told them to take the words of Jesus seriously.
My impression was that the Swiss Brethren suffered more at the hands of the Protestants than from the "Romanists". The Dutch 'anabaptists' (or 'the baptism minded', as they were called), on the other hand, fell under the control of the Catholic church more than that of the Protestants, because Spain controlled the Netherlands during that period of time. I think that there was thus additional reason for brutality - my impression is that some of it was political, not just religious. The local governmental leaders were under pressure to turn over the 'heretics', or they themselves were at risk of punishment. (Just my impressions from reading Martyrs' Mirror.)
It depends on which territory the Brethren were located in - when in Protestant territory they were persecuted by the Protestants, when in Roman Catholic territory, they were persecuted by the Romanists..

The Dutch Anabaptists and Hutterites suffered the greatest at the hands of Rome. The Jesuits enforced their counter-reformation by having children kidnapped from their homes and placed in Catholic orphanages. Conversions to Romanism were forced and many died instead of renouncing their following after Jesus.
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4578
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by Neto »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Neto wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: The same cannot be said of the Romanists, who have never been encouraged to follow Jesus' command to do good to one's enemies. The Swiss Brethren were brutalized violently by Rome's minions. Even Romanists have been brutalized by other Romanists - because Rome never told them to take the words of Jesus seriously.
My impression was that the Swiss Brethren suffered more at the hands of the Protestants than from the "Romanists". The Dutch 'anabaptists' (or 'the baptism minded', as they were called), on the other hand, fell under the control of the Catholic church more than that of the Protestants, because Spain controlled the Netherlands during that period of time. I think that there was thus additional reason for brutality - my impression is that some of it was political, not just religious. The local governmental leaders were under pressure to turn over the 'heretics', or they themselves were at risk of punishment. (Just my impressions from reading Martyrs' Mirror.)
It depends on which territory the Brethren were located in - when in Protestant territory they were persecuted by the Protestants, when in Roman Catholic territory, they were persecuted by the Romanists..

The Dutch Anabaptists and Hutterites suffered the greatest at the hands of Rome. The Jesuits enforced their counter-reformation by having children kidnapped from their homes and placed in Catholic orphanages. Conversions to Romanism were forced and many died instead of renouncing their following after Jesus.
I have reason to suspect that I may be descended from Sephardim Jews, probably on both sides of my family. Both Spain & Portugal were forcing the Jews to either convert, fake it, or move out. Many came to the Netherlands at that time, just prior to the outbreak of the Reformation. (As I recall, these edits were issued around 1492 or so.) I could wonder why a person fleeing persecution in one country would join up with another persecuted people in their new 'homeland', but it appears that they may have done so in great numbers. Only for peace with God through Jesus.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote: I have reason to suspect that I may be descended from Sephardim Jews, probably on both sides of my family. Both Spain & Portugal were forcing the Jews to either convert, fake it, or move out. Many came to the Netherlands at that time, just prior to the outbreak of the Reformation. (As I recall, these edits were issued around 1492 or so.) I could wonder why a person fleeing persecution in one country would join up with another persecuted people in their new 'homeland', but it appears that they may have done so in great numbers. Only for peace with God through Jesus.
I seem to remember a quote from the last Aztec king to his people when they fled the conquistadores, something along the lines of: "They will force you to adopt their ways and their God. Do what they tell you outwardly but remember the old ways and never forget our gods. Keep them hidden in your hearts."
That exhortation has always reminded me that forced conversions don't work, no matter whether it's Christians or Muslims who are doing the forcing. There were many Catholics from many sectors who disagreed with the politics of persecution and enslavement - even to the point of martyrdom for that belief and there still are Catholics who do so. The Jesuits had "bad guys" and yet they also had "good guys" who died while protecting the native population from slavery in South America. Whenever politics enters a situation, faith and reason leave through the window. We can't change the past. The best that we can all do today is to learn from the past and avoid repeating the mistakes of the past: all while maintaining a peaceful heart free of bitterness; to use those lessons to build a "New Jerusalem" in our hearts and minds and embrace the teachings of the New Testament fully.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
KingdomBuilder
Posts: 1482
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:00 pm
Affiliation: church of Christ

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

https://cbkwgl.wordpress.com/2012/02/06 ... st-speech/

Here's what I found for the last speech given by the last Aztec King. Not sure how reliable this source is.
Says something loosely related to what you said, Max.
0 x
Ponder anew what the Almighty can do
Neto
Posts: 4578
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Swiss Brethren?

Post by Neto »

MaxPC wrote:
Neto wrote: I have reason to suspect that I may be descended from Sephardim Jews, probably on both sides of my family. Both Spain & Portugal were forcing the Jews to either convert, fake it, or move out. Many came to the Netherlands at that time, just prior to the outbreak of the Reformation. (As I recall, these edits were issued around 1492 or so.) I could wonder why a person fleeing persecution in one country would join up with another persecuted people in their new 'homeland', but it appears that they may have done so in great numbers. Only for peace with God through Jesus.
I seem to remember a quote from the last Aztec king to his people when they fled the conquistadores, something along the lines of: "They will force you to adopt their ways and their God. Do what they tell you outwardly but remember the old ways and never forget our gods. Keep them hidden in your hearts."
That exhortation has always reminded me that forced conversions don't work, no matter whether it's Christians or Muslims who are doing the forcing. There were many Catholics from many sectors who disagreed with the politics of persecution and enslavement - even to the point of martyrdom for that belief and there still are Catholics who do so. The Jesuits had "bad guys" and yet they also had "good guys" who died while protecting the native population from slavery in South America. Whenever politics enters a situation, faith and reason leave through the window. We can't change the past. The best that we can all do today is to learn from the past and avoid repeating the mistakes of the past: all while maintaining a peaceful heart free of bitterness; to use those lessons to build a "New Jerusalem" in our hearts and minds and embrace the teachings of the New Testament fully.
There was only one priest who ever came into the village where we lived, and he self described as a "secular priest". (I have no idea what that means.) While he did oppose the work we were doing (translation of the Scripture), we sometimes found ourselves on the same side on other issues, and I was glad for the things he did in those areas. (Examples: Opposing abusive work relationships between outsiders and the Indians, like illegal wood cutters & fishing operations that were not only illegal, but wiped out a whole species of fish on a given river, and sponsoring the demarcation of Indian lands.) Other translators in the southern part of Brazil worked closely with priests who fully supported and cheered on the gift of the Scriptures in the native languages, and used the materials in their own ministries as they became available.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Post Reply