MennoNet.com

Sudsy wrote: From what I recall Menno Simons only recognized 2 ordinances - baptism and communion and only as symbolic. So, seems like Menno would not be part of a modern Conservative Mennonite church. Yes/No?

He wouldn't be part of ours, and we don't trace back to him.

Hats Off wrote:Unless the book would be written by someone like Donald Kraybill or Steve Nolt, I would expect to find considerable bias. We often assume that other conservative or plain Anabaptist practices and beliefs would be very similar or that ours are quite normative. Kraybill and Nolt among a few others, have done enough research to understand some of the more subtle differences between groups.

Thanks - that's very helpful.

Bootstrap wrote:

Josh wrote:I would not describe this book as adequately representing all or even most conservative Anabaptists.

It does describe the particular set of beliefs and practice adopted by some specific groups of conservative Anabaptists. These groups generally believe themselves (or other groups with practice at a similarly-strict level) to be the "real" conservative Anabaptists, with everyone else going astray.

I have no idea who David Null is or what group he comes from.

I don't know either, but "published by Rod & Staff" provides a good clue. Rod & Staff is a publisher associated with the Nationwide Fellowship Churches and (I think, others can correct me) the Eastern Pennsylvania Mennonite Church and the Conservative Mennonite Church of Ontario. These are perhaps the most conservative non-Old Order Anabaptist groups.

RZehr wrote:

Sudsy wrote: From what I recall Menno Simons only recognized 2 ordinances - baptism and communion and only as symbolic. So, seems like Menno would not be part of a modern Conservative Mennonite church. Yes/No?

He wouldn't be part of ours, and we don't trace back to him.

RZehr, to whom does your fellowship trace its roots?

I am guessing they trace their roots to Jacob Amman. I suppose very few of the Swiss Mennonites actually trace their roots to Menno since he was Dutch.

Generally speaking Holdemans look up to a book called Bible Doctrines and Practice, in addition to a high regard for older texts by Simons and Sattler particularly.

The idea of seven ordinances was invented by Daniel Kauffman in the early 1900s. It is a feature amongst fundamentalist-influenced conservative Anabaptists.

Nonetheless the seven ordinances are starting to influence Holdemans. I saw Kauffman's Doctrines of the Bible on a number of ministers' shelves, and the instruction manual for our girls' pre-marriage Bible class had the seven ordinances listed out, 1 through 7, on one of the pages of the teachers' notes. I am guessing Kauffman's ideas will start to become more and more influential in Holdeman circles.

Sudsy wrote:From what I recall Menno Simons only recognized 2 ordinances - baptism and communion and only as symbolic. So, seems like Menno would not be part of a modern Conservative Mennonite church. Yes/No?

Maybe, but Dirk Philips mentioned more.

Josh wrote:Generally speaking Holdemans look up to a book called Bible Doctrines and Practice, in addition to a high regard for older texts by Simons and Sattler particularly.

From something I read, it seemed that John Holdeman was quite fond of Dirk's works... is this right? If yes, do modern Holdemans still look to Dirk's writings with high regard?

Yes, Philips is another primary source. Basically, all the Dutch Anabaptists in Menno Simons' stream (the nonresistant ones).

There is some awareness of the violent streams of Anabaptism which I hear referred to as "millennialist" (this actually the academic term for it as well).

I'll post more on this book when I get a better wireless signal.

MaxPC wrote:

RZehr wrote:

Sudsy wrote: From what I recall Menno Simons only recognized 2 ordinances - baptism and communion and only as symbolic. So, seems like Menno would not be part of a modern Conservative Mennonite church. Yes/No?

He wouldn't be part of ours, and we don't trace back to him.

RZehr, to whom does your fellowship trace its roots?

Most of our church and the churches we are a part of trace back to the Swiss Brethren.