When to open a can of worms...

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by Sudsy »

I don't have a problem with admitting to current struggles as we read in James 5 so that we know what to pray for each other. But digging up the past on past failures can be a false act of humility and does leave the door open for others to be condemning. I have done that and found some to break fellowship over past sins. Paul says to imitate him by focusing on the future, the goal, and not on the past.
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:I don't have a problem with admitting to current struggles as we read in James 5 so that we know what to pray for each other. But digging up the past on past failures can be a false act of humility and does leave the door open for others to be condemning. I have done that and found some to break fellowship over past sins. Paul says to imitate him by focusing on the future, the goal, and not on the past.
I do not want to be part of a fellowship where I feel I have to hide my past failures because I cannot trust in the grace of the fellowship. Feeling like I have to hide means that I do not trust the fellowship.

At the same time, very few fellowships are so mature that everybody knows how to respond appropriately in truth and grace, so I think it is generally unwise to broadcast these things to everyone. And unfortunately, leadership can often feel pressured to respond to those most offended, so the loudest and most immature can cause more mature Christians difficulty in finding an appropriate response. There's a reason we choose mature leaders and pastors. They are the ones who can handle this kind of thing. Good friends can too.
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by ken_sylvania »

When the apostle Paul wrote about people who had turned away from the truth, he didn't hesitate to use names. Maybe if a story about someone else's sins is worth telling, it's also worth assigning names to.

I have felt sometimes that stories about unnamed persons might tend to be embellished more than they should be, and there is no accountability because there is no way to double check the accuracy. If you tell me a story about a man we both know and you tell me who it is about, I have a way of finding out whether it is true. If you tell me about this unnamed person who did this awful thing, if I have questions about its accuracy the first thing I have to do is ask you who it is about. If you have the attitude that all sins should be allowed to stay hidden, you're going to feel like I'm a meddling busybody, right?

I find it mildly ironic that the two posters on this thread who seem to feel that it is never acceptable to talk about other people's wrongs, each provided a story about other people's wrongs, told in a way which suggests that they despise the person they are telling about.

I really liked what Josh said:
Josh wrote:A church with a culture of admitting faults is a wonderful places. And sometimes people do need to talk about others who aren't present - there is a way this can happen that is loving and kind, instead of being to tear down.

"Ok, you need to understand this person did this in the past. Now you can know what they are going through now."

vs.

"Let me tell you about how bad this person is."
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Sudsy
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by Sudsy »

ken_sylvania wrote:When the apostle Paul wrote about people who had turned away from the truth, he didn't hesitate to use names. Maybe if a story about someone else's sins is worth telling, it's also worth assigning names to.

I have felt sometimes that stories about unnamed persons might tend to be embellished more than they should be, and there is no accountability because there is no way to double check the accuracy. If you tell me a story about a man we both know and you tell me who it is about, I have a way of finding out whether it is true. If you tell me about this unnamed person who did this awful thing, if I have questions about its accuracy the first thing I have to do is ask you who it is about. If you have the attitude that all sins should be allowed to stay hidden, you're going to feel like I'm a meddling busybody, right?

I find it mildly ironic that the two posters on this thread who seem to feel that it is never acceptable to talk about other people's wrongs, each provided a story about other people's wrongs, told in a way which suggests that they despise the person they are telling about.

I really liked what Josh said:
Josh wrote:A church with a culture of admitting faults is a wonderful places. And sometimes people do need to talk about others who aren't present - there is a way this can happen that is loving and kind, instead of being to tear down.

"Ok, you need to understand this person did this in the past. Now you can know what they are going through now."

vs.

"Let me tell you about how bad this person is."
Considering what I underlined, don't you think you should come right out and say who these two posters are ? I'm having trouble 'about its accuracy'.
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

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ken_sylvania wrote:When the apostle Paul wrote about people who had turned away from the truth, he didn't hesitate to use names. Maybe if a story about someone else's sins is worth telling, it's also worth assigning names to.
Sometimes Paul mentioned names, sometimes he didn't. Studying the circumstances behind each would be an interesting and useful exercise. Studying the circumstances that he thought broke fellowship and those that did not would also be an interesting and useful exercise. I have done a little of both, not enough to write up.

But gossip and slander and being a busybody and self-righteousness are all called out as serious sins in the New Testament. That doesn't mean we never mention someone's sin, even by name, but it does mean that we need to be discerning about whether and how to do so.

And sometimes those are the sins to mention together with someone's name: "Jim sometimes talks about people in a way that tears down the fellowship, and not everything he says is even true. Please don't encourage him to do that by listening to him."
ken_sylvania wrote:I have felt sometimes that stories about unnamed persons might tend to be embellished more than they should be, and there is no accountability because there is no way to double check the accuracy. If you tell me a story about a man we both know and you tell me who it is about, I have a way of finding out whether it is true. If you tell me about this unnamed person who did this awful thing, if I have questions about its accuracy the first thing I have to do is ask you who it is about. If you have the attitude that all sins should be allowed to stay hidden, you're going to feel like I'm a meddling busybody, right?
Quite possibly. I think you are applying accountability at the wrong point in the process. Why is this person telling you interesting stories that you cannot verify and are probably none of your business? Is this person being a gossip and a busybody, or playing a prurient self-righteous game to build a close bond with you at the expense of others?

I don't think sins should stay hidden, but they should be brought to the attention of the elders, not to everyone willing to listen. And sometimes we can be mistaken about other people's sin.
ken_sylvania wrote:I find it mildly ironic that the two posters on this thread who seem to feel that it is never acceptable to talk about other people's wrongs, each provided a story about other people's wrongs, told in a way which suggests that they despise the person they are telling about.
I didn't think anyone was saying that. But I do think that sins of speech and self-righteousness are just as serious as any other sin, and that Jesus calls out the Pharisees for special attention. That doesn't mean we should despise anyone, but surely we should despise serious sin, especially when it masquerades as righteousness.

And if someone is engaging in those sins, we should not encourage it. No more than we would encourage someone to engage in any other sin.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by Bootstrap »

ken_sylvania wrote:I really liked what Josh said:
Josh wrote:A church with a culture of admitting faults is a wonderful places. And sometimes people do need to talk about others who aren't present - there is a way this can happen that is loving and kind, instead of being to tear down.

"Ok, you need to understand this person did this in the past. Now you can know what they are going through now."

vs.

"Let me tell you about how bad this person is."
Yes, I liked that too.

And one of the reasons to talk about faults that way is to help build a culture where we do not encourage sins of speech. We need to recognize them as sins.
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by Joy »

I have opened cans of my own worms to individuals whom I thought needed the stories of repentance and forgiveness, including inmates.
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by MaxPC »

Sudsy wrote:I don't have a problem with admitting to current struggles as we read in James 5 so that we know what to pray for each other. But digging up the past on past failures can be a false act of humility and does leave the door open for others to be condemning. I have done that and found some to break fellowship over past sins. Paul says to imitate him by focusing on the future, the goal, and not on the past.
I agree. For the sake of those less mature in the graces of forgiveness and compassion, dredging up the past can become a stumbling block for them.
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by Bootstrap »

Joy wrote:I have opened cans of my own worms to individuals whom I thought needed the stories of repentance and forgiveness, including inmates.
I have done that too.
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Re: When to open a can of worms...

Post by Joy »

Joy wrote:I have opened cans of my own worms to individuals whom I thought needed the stories of repentance and forgiveness, including inmates.
I should have added that in one of those cases of sin on my part, I was inspired to confess to the party involved by a book in which the author confessed her sin at the same institution.

So her opening a can of worms helped me.
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