Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by Sudsy »

As we know, one of the defining issues of Anabaptism is the rejection of participation in warfare. And this warfare is generally speaking of any form of violence between human beings. However, I'm wondering if this belief in pacifism has a tendency to diminish our talking in terms of warfare that we Christians are at war daily with 3 major enemies - the world, the flesh and the devil.

Much attention to the Charlottesville occurrence has been given on various threads and today's sermon got me thinking this morning about the application of Ephesians 6 to our reactions to this occurrence and the varied news takes on what really did happen. Has this Charlottesville occurrence been viewed as a spiritual fight for us ?

Here is an article that reminds us of our 3 big enemies and warring against them

http://biblehelpsinc.org/publication/th ... tian-life/

How influenced am I being by worldly thinking (i.e. force, greed, ambition), my flesh (i.e. pride, malice, strife) and the deceptive ways satan (i.e. craftiness, lies, discord) that he uses in these occurrences against me ?

Do I see this topic as an area of spiritual warfare ? If viewed more this way might it assist in being able to love those who war from a physical perspective as well as how we handle any skirmishes we have with each other on the topic ?

Christianity is an on-going battleground that requires us to be well trained and equipped to fight off the enemies of our souls. What do you think ? Are we looking at things too much from a flesh and blood perspective ?
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haithabu
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by haithabu »

Spiritual warfare is definitely a part of my thinking in understanding the Christian life. And in corroboration of Sudsy's speculation, I have read a Mennonite expressing ambivalence about the concept just because of the martial connotations.

It is interesting that the core passage which discusses spiritual warfare in the Epistles (2 Corinthians 10) relates it directly to the struggle against deception and anti Christian narratives (every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God).
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Hats Off
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by Hats Off »

We quite frequently hear references to "taking on the whole armour of God" and the fact that our life here is in a constant state of warfare with the world, even while continuing to receive non resistance teaching. In our circles, the one does not affect the other.
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Sudsy
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:We quite frequently hear references to "taking on the whole armour of God" and the fact that our life here is in a constant state of warfare with the world, even while continuing to receive non resistance teaching. In our circles, the one does not affect the other.
Sounds good. When you say 'a constant state of warfare with the world' is this more a state of non-conformance to what is viewed as 'worldly' (i.e. electricity, multi coloured cars, certain dress patterns, etc) or is this warfare more directed to how the world (people in the world) sets priorities, what concerns them most, their values and ways of accomplishing things and their ways that are in opposition to the scriptures ? Or all of these ?

Do your people reference 'the flesh' and 'satan and demons' as the other 2 main enemies to take up battle with ?

If you had a chance to read that link I put in the OP, do you disagree with any of this ?
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Hats Off
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by Hats Off »

I read the article quickly and would say I am in agreement with the writer's thoughts. It very much echoes what we are taught. And when I wrote "the world", that term includes all three elements that you mention.The world includes all that is not part of church in two kingdom theology.
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Sudsy
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by Sudsy »

haithabu wrote:Spiritual warfare is definitely a part of my thinking in understanding the Christian life. And in corroboration of Sudsy's speculation, I have read a Mennonite expressing ambivalence about the concept just because of the martial connotations.

It is interesting that the core passage which discusses spiritual warfare in the Epistles (2 Corinthians 10) relates it directly to the struggle against deception and anti Christian narratives (every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God).
Yes, that is an interesting connection. Paul writes "We are human, but we don’t wage war as humans do. We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments. We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ." Any thoughts on what you think Paul was referring to by using 'God’s mighty weapons' ? And do we have access today to that same power ? If so, where are we seeing these same results ? If not, why not ?
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Hats Off
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:
haithabu wrote:Spiritual warfare is definitely a part of my thinking in understanding the Christian life. And in corroboration of Sudsy's speculation, I have read a Mennonite expressing ambivalence about the concept just because of the martial connotations.

It is interesting that the core passage which discusses spiritual warfare in the Epistles (2 Corinthians 10) relates it directly to the struggle against deception and anti Christian narratives (every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God).
Yes, that is an interesting connection. Paul writes "We are human, but we don’t wage war as humans do. We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments. We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ." Any thoughts on what you think Paul was referring to by using 'God’s mighty weapons' ? And do we have access today to that same power ? If so, where are we seeing these same results ? If not, why not ?
Scripture teaches us to put on the whole armour of God so I would say, yes, of course we have access to God's mighty weapons such as the sword of the spirit. We are not seeing the results much of the time because we stay at home, arguing with each other whether we should baptize in water or with water, should we immerse three times backwards or once forwards, etc! We argue about whether we are obedient when we do or don't baptize infants and if we raise our hands in supplication or fall on our faces. Is it actually Holy communion if we do or don't use wine? We can discuss head coverings among ourselves forever and we obviously don't see the results of using God's might weapons when we are involved with other believers in these arguments.
I do not wish to suggest that these discussions have no place among believers but the results are not the same as what we could expect from working with unbelievers and teaching them in proper order, the facts of creation and the fall of man, and the subsequent history of mankind up to the birth of the Messiah, the teaching, death and resurrection of the Saviour. And then showing them the need of believing, repentance and baptism in the name of the Trinity followed by a life lived in obedience to and as disciples of Jesus, the Son of God. This has in past times and continues today to bring results.
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appleman2006
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by appleman2006 »

Something I like to keep in mind when thinking about this topic is Eph. 6:12. Any discussion on what it means exactly?
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MaxPC
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by MaxPC »

haithabu wrote:Spiritual warfare is definitely a part of my thinking in understanding the Christian life. And in corroboration of Sudsy's speculation, I have read a Mennonite expressing ambivalence about the concept just because of the martial connotations.

It is interesting that the core passage which discusses spiritual warfare in the Epistles (2 Corinthians 10) relates it directly to the struggle against deception and anti Christian narratives (every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God).
Hats Off wrote:We quite frequently hear references to "taking on the whole armour of God" and the fact that our life here is in a constant state of warfare with the world, even while continuing to receive non resistance teaching. In our circles, the one does not affect the other.
Both of these posts resonate with me. The struggle against satan and his devices, powers and principalities is ongoing for all Christians
[bible]Ephesians 6, 11-13[/bible]
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Sudsy
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Re: Danger of Rejecting Warfare

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote: Scripture teaches us to put on the whole armour of God so I would say, yes, of course we have access to God's mighty weapons such as the sword of the spirit. We are not seeing the results much of the time because we stay at home, arguing with each other whether we should baptize in water or with water, should we immerse three times backwards or once forwards, etc! We argue about whether we are obedient when we do or don't baptize infants and if we raise our hands in supplication or fall on our faces. Is it actually Holy communion if we do or don't use wine? We can discuss head coverings among ourselves forever and we obviously don't see the results of using God's might weapons when we are involved with other believers in these arguments.
I do not wish to suggest that these discussions have no place among believers but the results are not the same as what we could expect from working with unbelievers and teaching them in proper order, the facts of creation and the fall of man, and the subsequent history of mankind up to the birth of the Messiah, the teaching, death and resurrection of the Saviour. And then showing them the need of believing, repentance and baptism in the name of the Trinity followed by a life lived in obedience to and as disciples of Jesus, the Son of God. This has in past times and continues today to bring results.
Guilty as stated. :oops: Sure is a lot easier to sit at a computer and debate how good our interpretations and applications of scripture are rather than obeying the 'go ye'. In my case, the flesh wins out too often and is not denied of what makes it comfortable. Christ following in scripture is certainly not some life of withdrawal from the people of this world that need Jesus. I think a wrong twist has been put on separation from the world in reading it as isolation from the world. I doubt Jesus is very impressed with this approach to those He came to save. Anyway, thanks for reminder what really matters most. Reminds me of this old hymn.

Lord, lay some soul upon my heart,
And love that soul through me;
And may I bravely do my part
To win that soul for Thee.

Some soul for Thee, some soul for Thee,
This is my earnest plea;
Help me each day, on life's highway,
To win some soul for Thee.

Lord, lead me to some soul in sin,
And grant that I may be
Endued with power and love to win
That soul, dear Lord, for Thee.

Some soul for Thee, some soul for Thee,
This is my earnest plea;
Help me each day, on life's highway,
To win some soul for Thee.

To win that soul for Thee, my Lord,
Will be my constant prayer;
That when I've won Thy full reward
I'll with that dear one share.

Some soul for Thee, some soul for Thee,
This is my earnest plea;
Help me each day, on life's highway,
To win some soul for Thee.

Jesus was mocked by religious folk for what they called 'a friend of sinners'. We are told that we cannot hold friendships with the world or we will be an enemy of God - James 4:4. So, as Jesus we may appear to be a 'friend of sinners' by some religious folk but if we are on mission and not indulging in their sinning but reaching them for the Saviour, what these religious folk or anyone thinks should not matter.

As Jesus said 'Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in Heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.'

Satan and his demons and our flesh will do whatever it takes to keep us from, as you say, 'working with unbelievers' and leading them to the Saviour. We are in a war to believe and see the strong holds of sin broken in people's lives or we are living in disobedience. This is the view of Christianity I was raised in and believe it to be true in my mind. Pray for me that it be believed in my heart and engage the world in God's love and power to win others for Him. I'm going to try to back off engaging more in these posts as fascinating they are.

Perhaps setting a goal to reach one unchurched person for Christ over the next 6 months may be a good starting goal. Anyone want to join in ? For some this may be a first, for others an on-going way of life as it was for my father. It's been awhile for me and got lazy in my retirement years.
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