A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Josh »

KKK, neo-Nazis, and white supremacists running around with Tiki torches, Swastikas, and KKK paraphernalia, carrying automatic weapons and wearing body armor ... those people ARE haters. If we want to tell people that we are not haters, we'd better be really clear that these people do not represent us, and we'd better demonstrate our love in action, not just in words.
I'm not quite sure why I have a responsibility (or anyone else in my congregation has a responsibility) to make it clear we are not followers of Richard Spencer or part of the KKK.

As conservative Mennonites, we don't carry (semi-) automatic weapons around, other than perhaps a hunting rifle during hunting season. We don't wear body armour. We don't wave any flags around, and any tiki torches would be confined to the back yard.

As far as my own congregation goes, this weekend there will be a lot of visitors due to a wedding during the church service. I don't think it would make any sense if the groom got up and announced he isn't a white supremacist or a neo-Nazi; the fact he is not a white person should be enough of a statement that as Mennonites we aren't about that.

I don't think we have a responsibility to really go any further, and continuing to talk about it (or talking defensively that "we aren't like this other group of people") basically makes it sound like we have something to apologise for. We don't.
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PeterG
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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Josh wrote:I'm not quite sure why I have a responsibility (or anyone else in my congregation has a responsibility) to make it clear we are not followers of Richard Spencer or part of the KKK.
1. Because you speak out freely on other social and political issues.
2. Because many in the Spencer/Alt-Right/KKK/etc. camp claim to act on your behalf as a white American Christian.
3. Because some of your values and the values of those you associate with overlap with some of their values.
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Josh
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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PeterG wrote:
Josh wrote:I'm not quite sure why I have a responsibility (or anyone else in my congregation has a responsibility) to make it clear we are not followers of Richard Spencer or part of the KKK.
1. Because you speak out freely on other social and political issues.
2. Because many in the Spencer/Alt-Right/KKK/etc. camp claim to act on your behalf as a white American Christian.
3. Because some of your values and the values of those you associate with overlap with some of their values.
1. I'm probably more outspoken than most, but generally speaking we do not speak out too freely on "social and political issues". We do speak out that all men need to follow Christ and that's where our focus is. Perhaps Holdemans narrow our focus this even more than other conservative Mennonites, but I think other conservative Mennonites that I'm around don't spend much time in the public or private sphere talking about "social and political issues". They talk a lot about man's need for a saviour.

2. I don't know of anyone on the "alt right" who talks on behalf of conservative Anabaptists, which is what my identity is. My principal identity is not a "white American Christian". Most people who identify as "Christians" have a very different believe system than I do.

3. My values overlap with a lot of people. For example, my values overlap quite a bit with Trotskyists, other revolutionary socialists, or organised labour activists, but that doesn't mean I need to apologise for the fact they share a few values that I do.
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PeterG
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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Josh wrote:I don't know of anyone on the "alt right" who talks on behalf of conservative Anabaptists, which is what my identity is. My principal identity is not a "white American Christian". Most people who identify as "Christians" have a very different believe system than I do.
You just did what you said you aren't responsible to do. ;)
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PeterG
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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Josh wrote:1. I'm probably more outspoken than most, but generally speaking we do not speak out too freely on "social and political issues". We do speak out that all men need to follow Christ and that's where our focus is. Perhaps Holdemans narrow our focus this even more than other conservative Mennonites, but I think other conservative Mennonites that I'm around don't spend much time in the public or private sphere talking about "social and political issues". They talk a lot about man's need for a saviour.
You're speaking freely enough when, unprompted, you deny that you're responsible to distance yourself from Spencer, etc. This level of engagement is more than enough to justify an explicit clarification of your position. If you were truly so distanced from the issue there would have been no need for you to comment on it at all.
Josh wrote:2. I don't know of anyone on the "alt right" who talks on behalf of conservative Anabaptists, which is what my identity is. My principal identity is not a "white American Christian". Most people who identify as "Christians" have a very different believe system than I do.
You're perfectly right to identify as a conservative Anabaptist rather than a white American Christian. The problem is that that is how some of these people identify themselves and us with them, and they claim to speak and act on our behalf as fellow white American Christians. If we don't want to be identified in this way, we'll have to make that clear, as you did very well in the above point.
Josh wrote:3. My values overlap with a lot of people. For example, my values overlap quite a bit with Trotskyists, other revolutionary socialists, or organised labour activists, but that doesn't mean I need to apologise for the fact they share a few values that I do.
You don't need to apologize for anything, but you should certainly distinguish yourself from the Trotskyists whenever there's a chance that you'll be associated with them.
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Josh
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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PeterG wrote:You're speaking freely enough when, unprompted, you deny that you're responsible to distance yourself from Spencer, etc. This level of engagement is more than enough to justify an explicit clarification of your position. If you were truly so distanced from the issue there would have been no need for you to comment on it at all.
Bootstrap keeps on stressing that conservative Anabaptist Christians need (for some reason) to make it clear we aren't part of this group. I am questioning why he feels the need to do that. This isn't a topic I really talk about anywhere else at all; this is a Mennonite discussion forum where it's appropriate to talk about things. I don't consider that "unprompted".
You're perfectly right to identify as a conservative Anabaptist rather than a white American Christian. The problem is that that is how some of these people identify themselves and us with them, and they claim to speak and act on our behalf as fellow white American Christians. If we don't want to be identified in this way, we'll have to make that clear, as you did very well in the above point.
Lots of other people feel like they can speak on behalf of American Christians, not the least the general evangelical Christian movement. It's a lot of effort to constantly stress I'm different than they are, and I'm not sure it's even productive to keep doing so.

It's better to spend time talking and doing what I'm about and let the difference between me and them be visible.
You don't need to apologize for anything, but you should certainly distinguish yourself from the Trotskyists whenever there's a chance that you'll be associated with them.
It's been a while since I've been accused of possibly being a Communist, but when someone does so, I don't feel a need to distance myself from them. I just say flatly, I'm a Christian and I believe in certain things like sharing with those in need, nonviolence, and so on, and the most important thing to me is believing in Jesus and following him. If someone else does this who is part-Trostkist, so be it.
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PeterG
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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Josh wrote:
PeterG wrote:You're speaking freely enough when, unprompted, you deny that you're responsible to distance yourself from Spencer, etc. This level of engagement is more than enough to justify an explicit clarification of your position. If you were truly so distanced from the issue there would have been no need for you to comment on it at all.
Bootstrap keeps on stressing that conservative Anabaptist Christians need (for some reason) to make it clear we aren't part of this group. I am questioning why he feels the need to do that. This isn't a topic I really talk about anywhere else at all; this is a Mennonite discussion forum where it's appropriate to talk about things. I don't consider that "unprompted".
You're perfectly right to identify as a conservative Anabaptist rather than a white American Christian. The problem is that that is how some of these people identify themselves and us with them, and they claim to speak and act on our behalf as fellow white American Christians. If we don't want to be identified in this way, we'll have to make that clear, as you did very well in the above point.
Lots of other people feel like they can speak on behalf of American Christians, not the least the general evangelical Christian movement. It's a lot of effort to constantly stress I'm different than they are, and I'm not sure it's even productive to keep doing so.

It's better to spend time talking and doing what I'm about and let the difference between me and them be visible.
You don't need to apologize for anything, but you should certainly distinguish yourself from the Trotskyists whenever there's a chance that you'll be associated with them.
It's been a while since I've been accused of possibly being a Communist, but when someone does so, I don't feel a need to distance myself from them. I just say flatly, I'm a Christian and I believe in certain things like sharing with those in need, nonviolence, and so on, and the most important thing to me is believing in Jesus and following him. If someone else does this who is part-Trostkist, so be it.
Well, okay. But this is at odds with much of your behavior (which I generally appreciate) on the public forum that is MN (including on this very page of this very thread), and to me it seems dangerously passive. It cedes to the world power over our identity; we may even start believing that we are who they say we are. Worst of all, if we bear the name of Jesus—and if we don't this is all pointless anyway—we risk the soiling of His name.
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Valerie
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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PeterG wrote:
Josh wrote:
PeterG wrote:You're speaking freely enough when, unprompted, you deny that you're responsible to distance yourself from Spencer, etc. This level of engagement is more than enough to justify an explicit clarification of your position. If you were truly so distanced from the issue there would have been no need for you to comment on it at all.
Bootstrap keeps on stressing that conservative Anabaptist Christians need (for some reason) to make it clear we aren't part of this group. I am questioning why he feels the need to do that. This isn't a topic I really talk about anywhere else at all; this is a Mennonite discussion forum where it's appropriate to talk about things. I don't consider that "unprompted".
You're perfectly right to identify as a conservative Anabaptist rather than a white American Christian. The problem is that that is how some of these people identify themselves and us with them, and they claim to speak and act on our behalf as fellow white American Christians. If we don't want to be identified in this way, we'll have to make that clear, as you did very well in the above point.
Lots of other people feel like they can speak on behalf of American Christians, not the least the general evangelical Christian movement. It's a lot of effort to constantly stress I'm different than they are, and I'm not sure it's even productive to keep doing so.

It's better to spend time talking and doing what I'm about and let the difference between me and them be visible.
You don't need to apologize for anything, but you should certainly distinguish yourself from the Trotskyists whenever there's a chance that you'll be associated with them.
It's been a while since I've been accused of possibly being a Communist, but when someone does so, I don't feel a need to distance myself from them. I just say flatly, I'm a Christian and I believe in certain things like sharing with those in need, nonviolence, and so on, and the most important thing to me is believing in Jesus and following him. If someone else does this who is part-Trostkist, so be it.
Well, okay. But this is at odds with much of your behavior (which I generally appreciate) on the public forum that is MN (including on this very page of this very thread), and to me it seems dangerously passive. It cedes to the world power over our identity; we may even start believing that we are who they say we are. Worst of all, if we bear the name of Jesus—and if we don't this is all pointless anyway—we risk the soiling of His name.
I'm not sure that is true though- for example, I see the Amish 'lifted up' as about the only real Christians left- by reading comments made by Amish enthusiasts- I think that society recognizes the different sects and don't blame the whole- I cold be wrong- I just see some groups are respected more than others- and partly the Amish are for minding their own business and living the way they do.
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Bootstrap
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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Josh wrote:
PeterG wrote:You're speaking freely enough when, unprompted, you deny that you're responsible to distance yourself from Spencer, etc. This level of engagement is more than enough to justify an explicit clarification of your position. If you were truly so distanced from the issue there would have been no need for you to comment on it at all.
Bootstrap keeps on stressing that conservative Anabaptist Christians need (for some reason) to make it clear we aren't part of this group. I am questioning why he feels the need to do that. This isn't a topic I really talk about anywhere else at all; this is a Mennonite discussion forum where it's appropriate to talk about things. I don't consider that "unprompted".
No, I do not. I don't have any particular insight into what plain churches need to do. I say that Christians need to make this clear. Our witness is being tainted. When I post on this forum, I think of it as talking with other like-minded Christians. I do like to raise questions about how we, as Christians, live our lives. In my faith, asking that kind of question is important.
Josh wrote:
You're perfectly right to identify as a conservative Anabaptist rather than a white American Christian. The problem is that that is how some of these people identify themselves and us with them, and they claim to speak and act on our behalf as fellow white American Christians. If we don't want to be identified in this way, we'll have to make that clear, as you did very well in the above point.
Lots of other people feel like they can speak on behalf of American Christians, not the least the general evangelical Christian movement. It's a lot of effort to constantly stress I'm different than they are, and I'm not sure it's even productive to keep doing so.

It's better to spend time talking and doing what I'm about and let the difference between me and them be visible.
I agree with that - I don't think we should let the societal war define us. I think we should let Jesus define us.

But I also think we should be aware that the world often defines us significantly. When I talk to non-Christians, their impression of who Christians are often seems to look like this: Christians are people who disapprove of other people and want to control them politically, believe that you get saved by praying a prayer, and follow a lot of rules - they are really uncomfortable with people who are different from them.

To me, that doesn't look a lot like Jesus. I want people to see something very different.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
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Josh
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

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Bootstrap wrote:No, I do not. I don't have any particular insight into what plain churches need to do. I say that Christians need to make this clear. Our witness is being tainted. When I post on this forum, I think of it as talking with other like-minded Christians. I do like to raise questions about how we, as Christians, live our lives. In my faith, asking that kind of question is important.
Our witness got tainted a long time before Charlottesville. I don't even try to represent "all Christians", but instead just try to represent and speak on behalf of "kingdom Christianity" or "following Jesus", and if pressured will say I'm Anabaptist & Mennonite. Then I will say that I believe you can't follow Jesus if you believe it's okay to kill people.

In the context of that, Charlottesville is rather small potatoes (along with a lot of other things), and the question of what following Jesus is comes down to something quite personal and a lot less abstract than some news event in some faraway place.
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