A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Hats Off
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy: I think I see several different situations - the one I am most familiar with is relating to co-workers and customers. In the past I have seen those with a new found zeal wanting to share at work with others who did not understand things their way. They tried to impose their new found beliefs on me but I already knew what i believed. They also imposed on our employer by using work time to talk to the rest of us - and they were not really open for discussion - they had the answers.

I suppose that experience influenced me - I will not start talking about my beliefs in a work situation. That does not mean that I am not open to talking with a customer or co-worker, but only when they initiate it, and even then I will seek common ground rather than go for areas where we have different understandings. One of my customers is a professed unbeliever and he used to really mock Christianity and religion. I continue to work with him - and see where he shows more respect as the years go by. I think of other co-workers from the past who I am sure I could not have continued to work with had I repeatedly tried to reach out to them.

I disagree that not talking boldly to everyone we meet is a sign that we don't care or that we don't take salvation seriously. I certainly would not be comfortable with your standards but out of respect for you, I try to explain my opinions without any attempt at saying "my way is the only way." I do not want to earn the reputation that the JWs or Mormons have. We must be able to witness in a way that that does not happen.

The other type of situation is where you go out on your own time and attempt to reach people. Obviously in that situation, you need to "be in their face" or approach them directly.
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by MaxPC »

Dan Z wrote:A war is brewing!

Polarization is on the rise in this country like I've never seen before (perhaps akin to the 1960s and 1860s)...and so is anger, hate, distrust, suspicion, pride. Voices on the left and right are getting more vitriolic, irrational and increasingly prone toward violence. The echo chamber of the internet certainly isn't helping...people can easily find affirmation for whatever they believe - rational or not. This is an emotive process - more about belonging, tribalism, prejudices than about thoughtful and reasoned discourse.

This polarization is sucking in and dividing many (most) Christians as well - and I suspect it will get worse before it get's better. Unfortunately, it is pulling in some (many) of our Anabaptist brethren also - who, tho they may claim to be non-resistant - are unsuspectingly enlisting in the fight.

In the midst of this growing societal dysfunction, and as a result of our non-resistance and our strong two-kingdom theology, I believe we Anabaptists have a unique opportunity to point to a better way in Jesus - but only if we are prepared for what is ahead.

This thread is dedicated to discussing how we Anabaptist might respond proactively to what is, I suspect, just the beginning of turbulent times:

Here are a few discussion starters;
  • 1) How do we insulate ourselves and our faith community from the ideological propaganda designed ON BOTH SIDES to lure us into taking sides in the cultural/political war raging all around us?

    2) How do we address those within our ranks who have already been sucked in, especially those who are actively recruiting other culture-warriors?

    3) How can we best bear witness to the way of Christ, including taking a stand for his ethical teachings, without being pulled into a fight that isn't ours? Is passivity or silence in the face of wrong an option?

    4) How should we minister to the casualties of the vitriol that is going on around us?

    5) How do we prepare for the attacks on us that inevitably will come to us for not choosing sides?
Maybe we can learn some lessons from the witness of our Anabaptist forebears who faced turbulent times in the past.
FWIW, I've found that it's much easier to bring a Christian witness if we don't listen to the constant barrage of political propaganda (on tv or the computer): it's distracting us from the truly important things. Instead, focus upon reading the Bible as a guide to discipleship; focus upon our relationship with God; and focus upon the persons standing next to us.
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Sudsy
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:Sudsy: I think I see several different situations - the one I am most familiar with is relating to co-workers and customers. In the past I have seen those with a new found zeal wanting to share at work with others who did not understand things their way. They tried to impose their new found beliefs on me but I already knew what i believed. They also imposed on our employer by using work time to talk to the rest of us - and they were not really open for discussion - they had the answers.

Yes, that happens and why these new babes in Christ need immediate discipleship training. They need to be trained in how, when and where to share their faith. We would explain how they should not use company time to do this and arrange for private talks and what they might come up against. I think a good new converts course and mentoring each new convert is very important. In my experience, few churches are on top of this and their discipleship training doesn't have much attention to faith sharing but gets into other areas of what a Christian should now look like. Both are necessary if we are to really follow being obedient.

I suppose that experience influenced me - I will not start talking about my beliefs in a work situation. That does not mean that I am not open to talking with a customer or co-worker, but only when they initiate it, and even then I will seek common ground rather than go for areas where we have different understandings. One of my customers is a professed unbeliever and he used to really mock Christianity and religion. I continue to work with him - and see where he shows more respect as the years go by. I think of other co-workers from the past who I am sure I could not have continued to work with had I repeatedly tried to reach out to them.

I believe that how we live as Christians is important and can and does open the doors to share the Saviour. My father was one of those who mocked Christianity. He chummed with professing Christians who were church goers yet outside of church they didn't reflect anything but certain restrictions to enjoying life. My mother first became a believer and over 2 years of observing her life and giving her a hard time, his curiosity got him to look into what had changed her.

I disagree that not talking boldly to everyone we meet is a sign that we don't care or that we don't take salvation seriously. I certainly would not be comfortable with your standards but out of respect for you, I try to explain my opinions without any attempt at saying "my way is the only way." I do not want to earn the reputation that the JWs or Mormons have. We must be able to witness in a way that that does not happen.

Sorry again I didn't mean to imply that. What I was questioning is how do we explain loving others as ourselves and our views on hell and judgment without it causing us to share Jesus. In my mind, I can't justify this without thinking that there is something not adding up in my beliefs. For me often it is what the scripture calls a snare, the fear of man. That battle between the flesh and the spirit where I want everyone to know Christ but don't want some persecution that will come my way in my sharing. My flesh resists areas that may be dangerous to it in some way. It wants comfort and withdrawal to being around people who practise their Christianity in a similar way.

When it comes to the JWs and Mormons they are willing to take this persecution. They train their people in dealing with spiritual conversations. I applaud them for that. Imo, Jesus lived a perfect life but was despised and rejected on men. Even those He came to minister to, the Jews. He said if He was disrespected so will we be. I question the idea of gaining people's respect as some of their criteria to respect is to not concern them with their eternal destiny.


The other type of situation is where you go out on your own time and attempt to reach people. Obviously in that situation, you need to "be in their face" or approach them directly.

I guess the term "be in their face" doesn't sit well with me as it sounds combative. I have had some JWs, more so than the Mormons, in my experience, more combative once they knew I was a Christ follower. Areas like our Trinity view and hell were challenged. My father would invite them in and sometimes for a meal. Two Mormon fellows once went to church with us. But I have participated in door-to-door evangelism using the Coral Ridge evangelism approach. Quite direct and in some cases quite effective in leading people to become Christ followers.

Anyway, I'm glad to share with you and no, my way is not "the way". But I think our ways do need to look closely at Jesus and the apostles way to see if we are really Christ followers and getting the same kind of treatment.
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Once Again
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Once Again »

As others have said, we should concentrate on living and sharing the values of the Kingdom of God and not get involved with the kingdoms of the world. That said, I think the news exaggerates reports of political unrest . Those involved in violent demonstrations on both sides are the minority. Most people wish to live their lives in peace. As long as the majority of the population have the necessities of life, unrest with be sporadic and short-lived. I hope.
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Bootstrap
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:In the midst of this growing societal dysfunction, and as a result of our non-resistance and our strong two-kingdom theology, I believe we Anabaptists have a unique opportunity to point to a better way in Jesus - but only if we are prepared for what is ahead.

This thread is dedicated to discussing how we Anabaptist might respond proactively to what is, I suspect, just the beginning of turbulent times:
I'd love to hear your answers too, Dan.

I am assuming you are using the broader definition of Anabaptists. If you don't want responses from people like me who are not plain Mennonites in this thread, please let me know, and I'll put it in another thread. I'm going to take one question at a time. This post is only 1/2 of an answer to the first question ...
Dan Z wrote:1) How do we insulate ourselves and our faith community from the ideological propaganda designed ON BOTH SIDES to lure us into taking sides in the cultural/political war raging all around us?
Some Anabaptists really are quite separate. But I've noticed that even some Amish have bought into conspiracy theories, it's hard to be completely separate. If my Facebook feed is any indicator, there are definitely plain Mennonites who are weighing in strongly on culture war issues. On the other end of the spectrum, there are MC-USA churches who seem to think that weighing in on every political issue is their major ministry.

I'm not sure we can be in this world and be completely insulated.

I'm reminded of this verse:
Matt 10:16 wrote:Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and pure as doves.
He's sending them into a bunch of villages in Galilee where pretty much everyone is Jewish, so this does not apply only to missionaries in persecuted countries, it applies to us here. As sheep, we are vulnerable, and there are wolves. So what does Jesus tell us to do? Well, actually, he tells us what to be. Wise as serpents. Pure as doves.

Let me start with the second.

Pure as doves

The word literally means "unmixed", and is always used metaphorically in the New Testament. Mounce shows where the word is used:

  • Matthew 10:16
    “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent (akeraioi | ἀκέραιοι | nom pl masc) as doves.
  • Romans 16:19
    Your obedience is known to all and thus I am rejoicing over you. But I want you to be wise as to what is good, and innocent (akeraious | ἀκεραίους | acc pl masc) as to what is evil.
  • Philippians 2:15
    so that you may be blameless and innocent (akeraioi | ἀκέραιοι | nom pl masc), children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like stars in the universe
Some translations say "harmless" as doves. I don't think that's really an accurate translation. Mounce suggests this definition:
ἀκέραιος wrote:pr. unmixed: hence, without mixture of vice or deceit, sincere, blameless, Mt. 10:16; Rom. 16:19; Phil. 2:15*
I don't think that means we don't reach out to sinners, tax collectors, or prostitutes. Jesus certainly did. And he spent a great deal of time socializing with them. But when we do that, we need to know that we are among wolves. Actually, we are also among wolves when we are with Pharisees, Sadducees, and Zealots. Jesus reached out to them too. They weren't entirely pure either.

Of course, this means we can't be white supremacists. But I also think this means we have to steer clear of conspiracy theories, victimization narratives, and grievance narratives - including white victimization narratives, and white grievance narratives. White supremacy is rooted in the same victimhood culture we recognize in others but do not see in ourselves, and there are echoes of this victimhood culture in many of our churches. Our faith is not about being white or black or any other ethnicity, we are followers of Jesus, who the anti-Semites despise, there is no longer Jew nor Greek, and our identity is in Jesus Christ. If we are pure, we promote Jesus Christ, not "Republican Christianity" or "Democratic Christianity" or "white Christianity" or "our heritage" draped in Confederate flags or Kwaanza celebrations. At the same time, we should want justice and mercy for all people - after all, Jesus calls these two of the "weightier matters of the law." At the very least, we should have compassion, and we should pray.
1 Tim 2:1-4 wrote:I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
And I think we should also be servants to the victims, as God leads. We should look for ways to be God's reconciling love to those who need it. That's as important as any words we preach or pamphlets we hand out. We cannot be light if the salt has lost its savor. And we cannot be pure if we look like we are part of Antifa. We need to have our own voice, based in compassionate love. I think we should search for that voice, search for the right way to show that love. Maybe the best approach is to find a black church and build Habitat houses together, or sponsor refugees together with them, or do prison ministry together with them. Or maybe the churches in Charlottesville could have a another prayer meeting before the next rally, then have a potluck together after the rally and go clean up the trash together. Perhaps they could even have the picnic in another park, far away from the ruckus, with a sign saying "From every tribe and nation." The best way to witness to the Kingdom of God is to be the Kingdom of God. Together. Remember that many of those who are threatened are our brothers and sisters. I would rather not tell them "go in peace, be warmed and filled."

I realize that the Quiet in the Land will take a different approach, preferring to separate themselves from all of this. That's also valid. I don't have much insight into your churches, but I would urge you to take purity and prayer seriously, even if you do not engage on the ground. And when we consider the mote in our own eye, I suspect we might all do well to look at grievance, victimization, conspiracy theories, tribalism, politicized hostility, and identities that divide Christians. If those things are present, separating from the world in order to remain pure has lost its value. If those things are present, engaging with the world in order to be God's reconciling love has lost its value. And perhaps we can challenge each other to maintain this purity without insisting that either approach is the only right one.
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Hats Off
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Hats Off »

Well said, Bootstrap. Certainly the plain people are not free from listening to or promoting conspiracy theories. We are not too much involved in victimisation theories - we do not see ourselves as victims of anything. One of the things that we do is help rebuild homes after floods, fires, and tornados without differentiating on class or colour. We do discriminate based on financial means, preferring to help those who cannot help themselves. I believe MDS involvement in places like the Gulf Coast have been a Kingdom response worth noting.
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Bootstrap
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Bootstrap »

Hats Off wrote:Well said, Bootstrap. Certainly the plain people are not free from listening to or promoting conspiracy theories. We are not too much involved in victimisation theories - we do not see ourselves as victims of anything. One of the things that we do is help rebuild homes after floods, fires, and tornados without differentiating on class or colour. We do discriminate based on financial means, preferring to help those who cannot help themselves. I believe MDS involvement in places like the Gulf Coast have been a Kingdom response worth noting.
Sounds great!

Honestly, if you can avoid the victimization theories, and avoid seeing yourself as a victim, that takes half of the heat out of the controversy without even going any further. And serving other people goes a long way in my book. The more we can be servants rather than victims, the further we are from the things that fuel this junk.
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Once Again
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Once Again »

When we are trying to reach people for Christ, it is important to not take a side on political things. If you side with political conservatives, you will likely have no chance of success in persuading a person with liberal views to listen to you and vice versa. No matter which side you take, you are going to alienate someone. All that is happening politically is just reinforcing my conviction that christians need to stay out of politics-out of voting and out of participation in demonstrations and protests. Saying we are citizens of the Kingdom of God and then turning around and getting involved in this world's politics will damage our ability to witness to others. Both sides will see us as hypocrites.
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Bootstrap »

Just finished what I started in this post, so here's the rest. (This is not a response to Once Again, I haven't really read that post yet.)
Matt 10:16 wrote:Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and pure as doves.
He's sending them into a bunch of villages in Galilee where pretty much everyone is Jewish, so this does not apply only to missionaries in persecuted countries, it applies to us here. As sheep, we are vulnerable, and there are wolves. So what does Jesus tell us to do? Well, actually, he tells us what to be. Wise as serpents. Pure as doves.
Now I'd like to take on the other half:

Wise as serpents

The word "wise" used here refers to spiritual wisdom in general, as in the wise man who built his house upon a rock. In context, I think Meyer has this right:
In view of the dangerous circumstances in which they would be placed, Jesus asks of them to combine (a combination to be realized under the direction of the Holy Spirit, as in Matthew 10:19) prudence (in the recognition of danger, in the choice of means for counteracting it, in regard to their demeanour in the midst of it, and so on) with uprightness, which shuns every impropriety into which one might be betrayed in the presence of the dangers referred to, and therefore refrains from thinking, choosing, or doing anything of a questionable nature in connection with them. For Rabbinical passages bearing on the wisdom of the serpent (Genesis 3:1) and the innocence of the dove (Hosea 7:11), see Schoettgen.
I'm guessing we will have many more protests like the ones we have seen, and White Supremacists and Antifa will show up faithfully. And the Internet will be full of emotional misinformation, photoshopped pictures, faked videos. I think we have two choices. In general, the one that lets us focus on Jesus is to assume much of what we hear is false, it takes time for the truth to emerge, and it all comes out in time. If we pay attention to unreliable information and rely on it, we're building on shaky ground. In general, we're probably better off not retweeting things or relying on them early in the process.

The only alternative is to become very good investigative journalists, learning how to know when the facts have been adequately verified. That's a lot of work. And best done together with others who see things from a different perspective. But people who want to do that really need to learn what journalists mean by reliable sourcing, which means providing evidence that other people can verify for themselves and rely on. A news source should not tell you, hysterically, that you have to rely on them because they are the ones who tell the truth, it should provide you with the facts you need to know if what they are saying is true. And when they get things wrong - all humans do - they should correct their earlier mistakes.

Either way, I think the On The Media Consumer's Handbooks are pretty useful.

Image

Here's the Protest Edition, which will come in handy in the coming months.

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Dan Z
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Re: A Kingdom Response to the Societal War

Post by Dan Z »

Great discussion. Let me summarize what I'm hearing:
  • 1) A number of folks (e.g. T1, Mike, Once Again) warn against getting caught up in hyperbole - like the use of the term "war." They expressed that the reality in their daily lives is not nearly as contentious as the picture painted by the media (which makes its money hyping the sensational).

    2) Others (e.g. Hats Off, Max, Once Again, Mike) felt that maintaining separation from the media and from politics will help protect our communities from getting drawn into a fight that is not ours to fight. Boot focused on media discernment and not getting caught up in conspiracy theories, or a victim mentality.

    3) Virtually everyone emphasized the importance of living out Kingdom values as a way of bearing witness to the reality of Christ in our lives. Some (e.g. Hats Off, Once Again) seemed to advocate a more quiescent witness that steadfastly goes about the work of Jesus, while others (e.g. Sudsy, Boot) emphasized a more active witness - Sudsy focused more on evangelism as being primary because hearts need to be changed before people will change, and Boot included more actively living out and advocating for the ethics of the Kingdom as well as we prophetically engage the society with the love of Christ.
A few of my favorite thoughts so far:
T1 wrote:my world is very mixed, culturally speaking.
i see everyday people of all descriptions just wanting to live+work in peace.
i do not see Nazis or BLM. or Westboro Baptists. or others.
mike wrote:I really think that the best way to prepare for these kinds of attacks is to genuinely divest ourselves from any kind of political involvement, and to focus on our kingdom life and work. If we mirror the peace and joy of the kingdom of God, people who are sick of the conflict will know where to go when they grow disillusioned with the world's kingdoms.
Sudsy wrote:I would say the scripture says to guard our hearts and if we feel a need to take any worldly ideological and political side or if one of these sides disturb and distract us from our mission, then we should focus on obeying Philippians 4:8 - "Brothers and sisters, think about the things that are good and worthy of praise. Think about the things that are true and honorable and right and pure and beautiful and respected." In other words, turn off the junk that can do us harm. Guard our hearts.
Sudsy wrote:I don't think it is the way of the Master to be passive or silent but we can't make anyone live up to Jesus teachings without them first being born again and receiving a changed heart and desire to follow Jesus
Hatsoff wrote:By living a quiet and peaceful lifestyle, we don't need to tell people around us where we stand; they already know what they expect of us.
Boot wrote:If we are pure, we promote Jesus Christ, not "Republican Christianity" or "Democratic Christianity" or "white Christianity" or "our heritage" draped in Confederate flags or Kwaanza celebrations. At the same time, we should want justice and mercy for all people - after all, Jesus calls these two of the "weightier matters of the law." At the very least, we should have compassion, and we should pray.
Boot wrote:We should look for ways to be God's reconciling love to those who need it. That's as important as any words we preach or pamphlets we hand out. We cannot be light if the salt has lost its savor. And we cannot be pure if we look like we are part of Antifa. We need to have our own voice, based in compassionate love. I think we should search for that voice, search for the right way to show that love.
I'll share some responses soon...
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