Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Biblical Anabaptist
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

Sudsy wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
MaxPC wrote: Has anyone ever tried to make peace between these groups? It would be nice to see them get rid of the animosity.
How I wish there could be peace. I think many of the members, especially of the younger generation, would be OK with making peace, but it seems some of the leadership feel to make peace would be to somehow compromise. Also W-F is allied with Eastern and Cumberland Valley associates with Pilgrim and Eastern and Pilgrim are at enmity with one another. Church politics Ggggrrrrrrrrrrr
Why are some nonresistant believers so resistant of other believers even other nonresistant ones ? Heaven sure is going to be a different place than what goes on here.
It is called "contending for the faith" The end justifies the means apparently. :roll:
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by Ernie »

I don't condone churches who put spiritual question marks on anyone who leaves their church.
At the same time, if a church stands for something and some who grow up in the church don't like what it stands for and leave, they should not be surprised if the church they leave doesn't want the leavers to influence those who stay. They leavers were the ones who charted a different course.
Most every church that stands for anything will want to guard the influences that come into the church.
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by Sudsy »

Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
How I wish there could be peace. I think many of the members, especially of the younger generation, would be OK with making peace, but it seems some of the leadership feel to make peace would be to somehow compromise. Also W-F is allied with Eastern and Cumberland Valley associates with Pilgrim and Eastern and Pilgrim are at enmity with one another. Church politics Ggggrrrrrrrrrrr
Why are some nonresistant believers so resistant of other believers even other nonresistant ones ? Heaven sure is going to be a different place than what goes on here.
It is called "contending for the faith" The end justifies the means apparently. :roll:
Now there is a big topic - What is the 'faith' to be contended ? Is it all these differences in how various groups practise their Christianity ? Is it to contend to have everyone in the local church believing and living the same ? Is it the core truths of what makes one a Christian, saved, a follower of Jesus ? Is there a 'faith' we can agree on that we must struggle to maintain and cannot be messed with ? Seems to me we can't even settle that within Anabaptism, let alone all the other thousands of Christian diverse groups.
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by ohio jones »

Sudsy wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote:It is called "contending for the faith"
Now there is a big topic - What is the 'faith' to be contended ?
It seems that the emphasis is on the contending, rather than on the faith.
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by YorkandAdams »

ken_sylvania wrote:
YorkandAdams wrote: I was recently talking to a gentleman from Washington and Franklin about the animosity. He openly admitted that he would never allow his children to work for a Cumberland Valley man, and would "forbid" his kids from marrying outside their bracket (WandF, Eastern, exc). I understand the reason for the marriage restrictions, but can't imagine having a list of "acceptable" employers that consists of only business owned by men in your conference. I have heard that the ministry will sometimes "check up" on those employed by employers outside of the conference's influence. In my opinion that is bordering on a cult.
Was he referring to not allowing his pre-teens and teenagers to work for anyone from Cumberland Valley? If so, it seems to me the employment thing makes about as much sense as the marriage thing.
I wouldn't think it appropriate for him to tell his married son that he can't work for an employer who isn't W&F.

I'm curious what you mean by "checking up" on those employed by outside employers. Does it consist of a visit to the workplace once in a while? If so, that's the kind of thing I think ministry would be well advised to do for everyone. The difference is if working with similarly minded believers, there's a bit of accountability that is missing when working for an employer who doesn't hold the same values your church holds dear.
Yes, he was referring to his unmarried children since that is all he had at the moment (oldest was a 17-year-old girl). I guess your point makes sense, as work will most likely have some influence on your lifestyle and beliefs.

Now the "checking up" is a really interesting concept to me. Employers from WandF can be "influenced" from the pulpit, where outside employers aren't. The story I heard was a truck driver wanted to work for a non-WandF employer. The company was owned by a conservative Anabaptist; I think he was from Mid-Atlantic (don't quote me on that). Anyway, after the man got a job offer, the bishop went up to "interview" the employer. I'm not sure if it was simply a formality, but I was told that he did actually talk to the owner. Now I agree that working for a like-minded individual is ideal, but the idea that a person's ministry is given that much influence is kind of dangerous in my opinion. Even if it was just a formality, I am not really comfortable with that practice.
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by ken_sylvania »

YorkandAdams wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
YorkandAdams wrote: I was recently talking to a gentleman from Washington and Franklin about the animosity. He openly admitted that he would never allow his children to work for a Cumberland Valley man, and would "forbid" his kids from marrying outside their bracket (WandF, Eastern, exc). I understand the reason for the marriage restrictions, but can't imagine having a list of "acceptable" employers that consists of only business owned by men in your conference. I have heard that the ministry will sometimes "check up" on those employed by employers outside of the conference's influence. In my opinion that is bordering on a cult.
Was he referring to not allowing his pre-teens and teenagers to work for anyone from Cumberland Valley? If so, it seems to me the employment thing makes about as much sense as the marriage thing.
I wouldn't think it appropriate for him to tell his married son that he can't work for an employer who isn't W&F.

I'm curious what you mean by "checking up" on those employed by outside employers. Does it consist of a visit to the workplace once in a while? If so, that's the kind of thing I think ministry would be well advised to do for everyone. The difference is if working with similarly minded believers, there's a bit of accountability that is missing when working for an employer who doesn't hold the same values your church holds dear.
Yes, he was referring to his unmarried children since that is all he had at the moment (oldest was a 17-year-old girl). I guess your point makes sense, as work will most likely have some influence on your lifestyle and beliefs.

Now the "checking up" is a really interesting concept to me. Employers from WandF can be "influenced" from the pulpit, where outside employers aren't. The story I heard was a truck driver wanted to work for a non-WandF employer. The company was owned by a conservative Anabaptist; I think he was from Mid-Atlantic (don't quote me on that). Anyway, after the man got a job offer, the bishop went up to "interview" the employer. I'm not sure if it was simply a formality, but I was told that he did actually talk to the owner. Now I agree that working for a like-minded individual is ideal, but the idea that a person's ministry is given that much influence is kind of dangerous in my opinion. Even if it was just a formality, I am not really comfortable with that practice.
I don't think I'd be comfortable with that either. I wonder if that is a typical practice or if this was a unique situation.
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Martin
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by Martin »

YorkandAdams wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote: A common enemy produces some strange friendships. Mid-Atlantic and Hope both separated from Eastern at different times years ago, whereas Cumberland Valley and Washington-Franklin had a separation from each other some 50 years ago. At that time Washington-Franklin taught animosity toward Cumberland Valley. That lesson was well learned as, with the exception of a small segment of the younger generation, some of that animosity still exists. Perhaps animosity is a bit strong, but being a teenager in the Washington-Franklin (South) at the time of the division was difficult. At times you were not allowed to go to cousins weddings etc. It was preached that those folks had "left the church" and it was implied that their salvation was in question as a result. It was difficult as a teenager to feel that perhaps your grandparents had walked away from God
I was recently talking to a gentleman from Washington and Franklin about the animosity. He openly admitted that he would never allow his children to work for a Cumberland Valley man, and would "forbid" his kids from marrying outside their bracket (WandF, Eastern, exc). I understand the reason for the marriage restrictions, but can't imagine having a list of "acceptable" employers that consists of only business owned by men in your conference. I have heard that the ministry will sometimes "check up" on those employed by employers outside of the conference's influence. In my opinion that is bordering on a cult.

The concept of "leaving the church" is one that is hard for me to fathom, but I do understand why it persists. Fearing for the salvation of one's friends is probably a little over the top, but we all have our cut off where we would say they have forsaken god. Hopefully, it is not simply a slight difference in dress, car color, or covering style. But, it certainly could be forsaking the biblical doctrine of nonresistance.
As someone who grew up in W-F, I faced slurs and snide remarks from my co-workers who were in Cumberland Valley. Also, I remember when I attended a Pilgrim church, that the young six - ten year olds started yelling "Amish, Amish, Amish" at me when I donned my hat. Needless to say, I'm not going back but will not stereotype the whole group this way as I have very close friends there. But if the gentleman you spoke with experienced any of this I think I understand where he is coming from.

Also, that W-F "taught" animosity is not true. I never heard any animosity toward the above mentioned groups. Instead I heard that these groups are "closer to the world", "worldy", "have no sign of separation", "not traditional", "on a slippery slope" or "progressive". My parents have cousins and relatives who were raised in what is now the Franklin Mennonite Conference and at the time W-F's sister conference, Lancaster who are now gay and d&r. So, what does one say?
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by cmbl »

Martin wrote: Also, that W-F "taught" animosity is not true. I never heard any animosity toward the above mentioned groups. Instead I heard that these groups are "closer to the world", "worldy", "have no sign of separation", "not traditional", "on a slippery slope" or "progressive". My parents have cousins and relatives who were raised in what is now the Franklin Mennonite Conference and at the time W-F's sister conference, Lancaster who are now gay and d&r. So, what does one say?
I visited an Ohio Wisler church once where the minister preached against "those so-called conservative churches" where the men wear short-sleeved shirts. "Are we all going the same direction? Will we all reach the same place? Will we all reach Heaven?"

The ultra-conservatives will cling to their long-sleeved shirts and their plain hats and their no insurance and will do just fine. The rest of us will apostatize into Protestantism. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but seriously, listening to us intermediates and moderates talk about how enlightened we are fellowshipping with all these different groups sounds a lot like listening to the open-minded liberals who deride us for the boundaries we draw.
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

Martin wrote:
YorkandAdams wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote: A common enemy produces some strange friendships. Mid-Atlantic and Hope both separated from Eastern at different times years ago, whereas Cumberland Valley and Washington-Franklin had a separation from each other some 50 years ago. At that time Washington-Franklin taught animosity toward Cumberland Valley. That lesson was well learned as, with the exception of a small segment of the younger generation, some of that animosity still exists. Perhaps animosity is a bit strong, but being a teenager in the Washington-Franklin (South) at the time of the division was difficult. At times you were not allowed to go to cousins weddings etc. It was preached that those folks had "left the church" and it was implied that their salvation was in question as a result. It was difficult as a teenager to feel that perhaps your grandparents had walked away from God
I was recently talking to a gentleman from Washington and Franklin about the animosity. He openly admitted that he would never allow his children to work for a Cumberland Valley man, and would "forbid" his kids from marrying outside their bracket (WandF, Eastern, exc). I understand the reason for the marriage restrictions, but can't imagine having a list of "acceptable" employers that consists of only business owned by men in your conference. I have heard that the ministry will sometimes "check up" on those employed by employers outside of the conference's influence. In my opinion that is bordering on a cult.

The concept of "leaving the church" is one that is hard for me to fathom, but I do understand why it persists. Fearing for the salvation of one's friends is probably a little over the top, but we all have our cut off where we would say they have forsaken god. Hopefully, it is not simply a slight difference in dress, car color, or covering style. But, it certainly could be forsaking the biblical doctrine of nonresistance.
As someone who grew up in W-F, I faced slurs and snide remarks from my co-workers who were in Cumberland Valley. Also, I remember when I attended a Pilgrim church, that the young six - ten year olds started yelling "Amish, Amish, Amish" at me when I donned my hat. Needless to say, I'm not going back but will not stereotype the whole group this way as I have very close friends there. But if the gentleman you spoke with experienced any of this I think I understand where he is coming from.

Also, that W-F "taught" animosity is not true. I never heard any animosity toward the above mentioned groups. Instead I heard that these groups are "closer to the world", "worldy", "have no sign of separation", "not traditional", "on a slippery slope" or "progressive". My parents have cousins and relatives who were raised in what is now the Franklin Mennonite Conference and at the time W-F's sister conference, Lancaster who are now gay and d&r. So, what does one say?
I beg to disagree with you. I don't know who you are but I was in W-F as a teenager when the "split" took place. Maybe animosity is a bit strong but not much. I think a lot of that has gone away in the younger generation and time has a way of making such feelings less intense sometimes.
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YorkandAdams
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Re: Pros and Cons of living in heavily populated Mennonite/Amish areas vs. Not

Post by YorkandAdams »

cmbl wrote:
Martin wrote: Also, that W-F "taught" animosity is not true. I never heard any animosity toward the above mentioned groups. Instead I heard that these groups are "closer to the world", "worldy", "have no sign of separation", "not traditional", "on a slippery slope" or "progressive". My parents have cousins and relatives who were raised in what is now the Franklin Mennonite Conference and at the time W-F's sister conference, Lancaster who are now gay and d&r. So, what does one say?
I visited an Ohio Wisler church once where the minister preached against "those so-called conservative churches" where the men wear short-sleeved shirts. "Are we all going the same direction? Will we all reach the same place? Will we all reach Heaven?"

The ultra-conservatives will cling to their long-sleeved shirts and their plain hats and their no insurance and will do just fine. The rest of us will apostatize into Protestantism. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but seriously, listening to us intermediates and moderates talk about how enlightened we are fellowshipping with all these different groups sounds a lot like listening to the open-minded liberals who deride us for the boundaries we draw.
Enligntened, no. My desire is to cement myself in the place where I can best serve christ. Some of us like to "get out there" and meet others, and one of the easiest ways for me to do this is fellowship. My church is the only one in its "bracket" in the county. If I desire fellowship outside my church (which if done in moderation is healthy) I either have to go up or down the ladder (or drive an hour away). Since I lean on the more conservative side, I tend to frequent the more conservative churches. Granted this is much easier for me as I am from a NMB, meaning that I don't have to deal with the family politics that some of you would.
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