Violence

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Hats Off
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Violence

Post by Hats Off »

:blah: Hey all you posters! Listen up! I like reading the new forum posts but there is so much mention of violence in the threads like "Error" and "Antifa" that my internet security appliance blocks them - just too much violence! Isn't this a dreadful condition for an Anabaptist forum where we all claim to be peace loving and opposed to violence? :oops: :oops: And now I just checked my own post but it isn't blocked (yet). :D
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Violence

Post by ken_sylvania »

Hats Off wrote::blah: Hey all you posters! Listen up! I like reading the new forum posts but there is so much mention of violence in the threads like "Error" and "Antifa" that my internet security appliance blocks them - just too much violence! Isn't this a dreadful condition for an Anabaptist forum where we all claim to be peace loving and opposed to violence? :oops: :oops: And now I just checked my own post but it isn't blocked (yet). :D
My security solution at home blocked the Antifa thread.
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Robert
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Re: Violence

Post by Robert »

My selective reading blocks whatever I disagree with. 8-)
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temporal1
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Re: Violence

Post by temporal1 »

Hats Off wrote: :blah: Hey all you posters! Listen up! I like reading the new forum posts but there is so much mention of violence in the threads like "Error" and "Antifa" that my internet security appliance blocks them - just too much violence!

Isn't this a dreadful condition for an Anabaptist forum where we all claim to be peace loving and opposed to violence? :oops: :oops:
And now I just checked my own post but it isn't blocked (yet). :D
this last week has been hard, it is tough to read of it in the mainstream. i've tried to control even my reading on this forum, because it is so personal, emotions run high.

this year, i've been trying so hard to not post in political threads, the temptation is great.

however, there are many good posts that i'm glad i am able to read, by a number of members.
Robert has contributed, haithabu, mike, and several others. choosing the valuable is important. my "selective reading" does not work as well as Robert's.

hoping you will begin some new topics. :D
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PeterG
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Re: Violence

Post by PeterG »

I don't think you've missed much, except this post by DanZ.
Dan Z wrote:I think it must be possible to disavow the violence and errant ideologies of both radical anarchists on the left and militant white nationalists on the right - but unfortunately it can't be done credibly by ideologues pointing out the faults that lie on the other side of the ideological spectrum. It is all so ugly and wrong!

What I see here on MN and on my Facebook feed is, predictably, my conservative-minded friends trying to offset the imbalance of Charlottsville outrage they perceive in the media and on the left by pointing out the concurrent sins of radical groups like Antifa, noting, like the president did, that there were misdeeds on both sides. The problem is that this approach looks self-serving at best (in defense of the reputation of one's party/ideology) and at worst it looks like a tacit justification of white supremacists ideals and tactics.

And at the same time, my liberal-leaning friends are outraged over the events of Charlottsville, sharing videos of Nazi flags and salutes, and pointing out the violent intolerance, racism and hate of the extreme right...noting the president's moral weakness in failing to condemn white nationalism on their timing and to their satisfaction - and at the same time extolling the virtues of most of the counter-protesters (and downplaying the violence on the left). Again, the problem here is that this ultimately looks more like political gamesmanship than moral outrage - aimed at further weakening the president and his party.

So how does one respond to societal hatred and violence like that which was on display in Charlottsville last weekend?

Here are a few possibilities:
  • 1) If you must be ideologically inclined, look to the plank in your own side's ideological eye before you point out the splinter in the other side's eye. Rather than trying to address the moral wrongdoing of others...spend your efforts addressing the wrongs in your own house and challenging your brethren to be better (like Ronald Reagan did in response to the white supremacy of his day, or like ML King did in rejecting the violence of the black power movement). In both cases, these men helped advance their own cause by addressing its shortcomings, and at the same time they both strengthened their own voice by showing a willingness to address wrong wherever it may manifest itself.

    2) Better yet, as Anabaptist Christians who understand the value of separation from the world's power structures and whose allegiance is to a higher Kingdom...we should guard our ideological independence (allegiance), and model a better way...unflinchingly addressing immorality wherever it may be (including in the church) with lives radically lived in the face of violence and injustice, and hearts that long for the way of Jesus to win out...oh...and let's please stop being so predictably partisan in our thinking (pep talk to self ;)).
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:What I see here on MN and on my Facebook feed is, predictably, my conservative-minded friends trying to offset the imbalance of Charlottsville outrage they perceive in the media and on the left by pointing out the concurrent sins of radical groups like Antifa, noting, like the president did, that there were misdeeds on both sides. The problem is that this approach looks self-serving at best (in defense of the reputation of one's party/ideology) and at worst it looks like a tacit justification of white supremacists ideals and tactics.
I think this is a lot of what I have been trying to say. Swastikas, KKK imagery, uniforms, and weapons are meant to intimidate. The event wasn't a contest between left and right, and it wasn't a discussion of the best way to handle a monument. When we talk about this, I would really like to hear more compassion for the people who were intimidated, without bringing in other themes.

I think we should listen to their stories. Stories like this one. This really isn't mostly about the things we keep talking about. It's mostly about people who were threatened, and the people who were threatening them.
As white supremacists converged on a Charlottesville park for their violent “Unite the Right” rally, some of them menaced the city’s historic Beth Israel synagogue during Shabbat services, standing across from the building with semi-automatic weapons in their hands.
Zimmerman, in an essay published on ReformJudaism.org, said that neo-Nazis marching past the building shouted hateful slogans like “Seig Heil,” the Third Reich’s “Hail Victory” shout. He added that the synagogue had retained an armed guard, after the Charlottesville police department failed to provide the synagogue with security on Saturday.

The synagogue took other precautionary measures, due to calls on far-right Web sites for the building to be burned. Zimmerman said that he and the rabbis decided to remove the congregation’s Torah scrolls to a more secure location.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:And at the same time, my liberal-leaning friends are outraged over the events of Charlottsville, sharing videos of Nazi flags and salutes, and pointing out the violent intolerance, racism and hate of the extreme right...noting the president's moral weakness in failing to condemn white nationalism on their timing and to their satisfaction - and at the same time extolling the virtues of most of the counter-protesters (and downplaying the violence on the left). Again, the problem here is that this ultimately looks more like political gamesmanship than moral outrage - aimed at further weakening the president and his party.
Clearly, we need to be against violence by both sides. But the victims were not Antifa, and neither were the non-violent protesters. I think we can praise the courage of non-violent protesters and be clearly against violent responses. I don't think we should put non-violent protesters on trial, though, or treat them the same as Antifa.

I definitely agree that we tend to think more clearly about these things when we leave Trump (and Obama) out of it. And probably also when we leave the whole contest of whose media is better out of it. You can't get a balanced view without looking at all sides, weighing what is said, and rejecting some of what each is saying.

Having compassion for those who are threatened and standing against hatred and violence is simpler if we don't complicate it with all these other things, which are not Kingdom issues at all.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan Z wrote:2) Better yet, as Anabaptist Christians who understand the value of separation from the world's power structures and whose allegiance is to a higher Kingdom...we should guard our ideological independence (allegiance), and model a better way...unflinchingly addressing immorality wherever it may be (including in the church) with lives radically lived in the face of violence and injustice, and hearts that long for the way of Jesus to win out...oh...and let's please stop being so predictably partisan in our thinking (pep talk to self ;))
I agree with both parts of this - preserving our ideological independence and unflinchingly addressing immorality. Unflinchingly addressing it starts with being willing to look at it unflinchingly, to see the evil of what occurred. But it also means being able to have an unflinching conversation about it.
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Chris
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Re: Violence

Post by Chris »

Once again, Jesus is the answer to this who problem of violence and race.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

Post by Bootstrap »

Chris wrote:Once again, Jesus is the answer to this who problem of violence and race.
Sometimes that sounds like "Go in peace, be warmed and well fed". Yes, of course Jesus is the answer, and we are the body of Christ. Jesus expects us to express our faith in actions. That's one of the ways Jesus is the answer.

So how would we respond to this if it were our Mennonite churches that were being threatened?
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