Violence

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
GaryK
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Re: Violence

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
Chris wrote:Once again, Jesus is the answer to this who problem of violence and race.
Sometimes that sounds like "Go in peace, be warmed and well fed". Yes, of course Jesus is the answer, and we are the body of Christ. Jesus expects us to express our faith in actions. That's one of the ways Jesus is the answer.

So how would we respond to this if it were our Mennonite churches that were being threatened?
Hopefully in the same way the early church and the early Anabaptists did?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

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GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Sometimes that sounds like "Go in peace, be warmed and well fed". Yes, of course Jesus is the answer, and we are the body of Christ. Jesus expects us to express our faith in actions. That's one of the ways Jesus is the answer.

So how would we respond to this if it were our Mennonite churches that were being threatened?
Hopefully in the same way the early church and the early Anabaptists did?
What is your read on that? How did they respond to others who were being threatened?

What do you think of Traci Blackmon's request for pastors?
Might you consider beginning your worship tomorrow morning with prayer for our nation and the people of Charlottesville in particular?

Will you pray for the wounded. The healers. The witnesses. The warriors. and the dead inside? Will you pray for the families of those who have died? And will you call out white supremacy by name and rebuke it in the name of Jesus?
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GaryK
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Re: Violence

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Sometimes that sounds like "Go in peace, be warmed and well fed". Yes, of course Jesus is the answer, and we are the body of Christ. Jesus expects us to express our faith in actions. That's one of the ways Jesus is the answer.

So how would we respond to this if it were our Mennonite churches that were being threatened?
Hopefully in the same way the early church and the early Anabaptists did?
What is your read on that? How did they respond to others who were being threatened?
I would hope that we would love those who are persecuting us and would flee for our lives if necessary and even be willing to die for our faith if needed. I would hope that we would be as two-kingdom minded as they were. I would hope that as we were persecuted and even fleeing for our lives that we we would boldly proclaim the good news of Jesus and his Kingdom.
Bootstrap wrote:What do you think of Traci Blackmon's request for pastors?
Might you consider beginning your worship tomorrow morning with prayer for our nation and the people of Charlottesville in particular?

Will you pray for the wounded. The healers. The witnesses. The warriors. and the dead inside? Will you pray for the families of those who have died? And will you call out white supremacy by name and rebuke it in the name of Jesus?
I could go along with most of it. I'm not sure what is meant by the warriors and the dead inside. I would change the underlined part to "And will you call on all those who don't know Jesus to make the choice to follow him and to join the Kingdom that embraces the true way of peace, where everyone is viewed as a brother and sister in Jesus?"
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

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GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:What do you think of Traci Blackmon's request for pastors?
Might you consider beginning your worship tomorrow morning with prayer for our nation and the people of Charlottesville in particular?

Will you pray for the wounded. The healers. The witnesses. The warriors. and the dead inside? Will you pray for the families of those who have died? And will you call out white supremacy by name and rebuke it in the name of Jesus?
I could go along with most of it. I'm not sure what is meant by the warriors and the dead inside. I would change the underlined part to "And will you call on all those who don't know Jesus to make the choice to follow him and to join the Kingdom that embraces the true way of peace, where everyone is viewed as a brother and sister in Jesus?"
I don't know what she meant by the warriors and the dead inside either. So let's leave that part out or I'll have to research it ;->

I like your change in emphasis. I think it's important to address the current situation with compassion and pray for those who are threatened, but also focus on choosing to follow Jesus. I'd like to add in hate versus love somewhere, perhaps like this:
And will you call on all those who don't know Jesus to make the choice to follow him and to join the Kingdom that embraces the true way of peace and love, where everyone is viewed as a brother and sister in Jesus, and there is no room for hate??
And perhaps pray for Christians working on the ground in Charlottesville in the aftermath of this last event and the threat of future events that are already being planned.
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GaryK
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Re: Violence

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:What do you think of Traci Blackmon's request for pastors?
I could go along with most of it. I'm not sure what is meant by the warriors and the dead inside. I would change the underlined part to "And will you call on all those who don't know Jesus to make the choice to follow him and to join the Kingdom that embraces the true way of peace, where everyone is viewed as a brother and sister in Jesus?"
I don't know what she meant by the warriors and the dead inside either. So let's leave that part out or I'll have to research it ;->

I like your change in emphasis. I think it's important to address the current situation with compassion and pray for those who are threatened, but also focus on choosing to follow Jesus. I'd like to add in hate versus love somewhere, perhaps like this:
And will you call on all those who don't know Jesus to make the choice to follow him and to join the Kingdom that embraces the true way of peace and love, where everyone is viewed as a brother and sister in Jesus, and there is no room for hate??
And perhaps pray for Christians working on the ground in Charlottesville in the aftermath of this last event and the threat of future events that are already being planned.
But wouldn't it be assumed that the true way of peace and love wouldn't have any room for hate? Why is it necessary to include hate?
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Sudsy
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Re: Violence

Post by Sudsy »

Consider these verses regarding condemnation -

1) John 3:17 - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.'

2) John 12:47 - "If anyone hears my words and doesn't keep them, I don't condemn him, because I didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it."

3) John 8:11 - 'She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

So God sent Jesus not to condemn the world. In the second verse Jesus said He doesn't condemn those who hear but don't keep His words. And the woman caught in adultery is an example of Him not condemning.

However when it came to the Pharisees Jesus did give them very strong rebukes which some call this condemning them. But was Jesus condemning them or condemning their sinful acts ?

What I think can be a challenge for us is to be sure to look at the actions of sinners (i.e. the hypocrisy of the Pharisees or the hate language against Jews) and if we are denouncing sinful actions we do not condemn those who do these actions. Hate the sin but love the sinner.

Those Jesus strongly rebuked were religious people, the Pharisees, who were enslaving others to rules and regulations of religion, not bringing them into a free and liberating relationship with God which is characterized by mercy, compassion, and faith. Those making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. Those Jesus ever criticized were those of His own religious group who were condemning and criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners. He is our example to follow, right ?

The KKK folk need our love as much as the good living atheist. Do I have that Jesus kind of view toward us sinners ? The unsaved world has no need to love the sinner and will often hate the sinners of certain sins. But if we have the love of Jesus abiding in us, we will see everyone the same, needing to know God's love.
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Hats Off
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Re: Violence

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Sudsy wrote: Those Jesus strongly rebuked were religious people, the Pharisees, who were enslaving others to rules and regulations of religion, not bringing them into a free and liberating relationship with God which is characterized by mercy, compassion, and faith. Those making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. Those Jesus ever criticized were those of His own religious group who were condemning and criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners. He is our example to follow, right ?
I believe it is a challenge for all of us to remember the words Jesus had for the Pharisees. It is very easy for those of us who hold to standards and traditions to become today's version of the Pharisee. But we still believe that it is possible to maintain a plain Anabaptist lifestyle without making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. We don't believe it is necessary to give up our standards and practices to be free from criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners.

One more characteristic of our relationship with God is that of obedience. Along with mercy, compassion, and faith, we must live in obedience to the teachings of Jesus. We sing a German song that interprets something like this "All people gladly hear of the Kingdom of God, and believe that a future place has been prepared for them; but then when they hear that we must also carry the cross of Christ, and be a disciple of Jesus, many fail to continue on that way."
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

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Hats Off wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Those Jesus strongly rebuked were religious people, the Pharisees, who were enslaving others to rules and regulations of religion, not bringing them into a free and liberating relationship with God which is characterized by mercy, compassion, and faith. Those making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. Those Jesus ever criticized were those of His own religious group who were condemning and criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners. He is our example to follow, right ?
I believe it is a challenge for all of us to remember the words Jesus had for the Pharisees. It is very easy for those of us who hold to standards and traditions to become today's version of the Pharisee. But we still believe that it is possible to maintain a plain Anabaptist lifestyle without making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. We don't believe it is necessary to give up our standards and practices to be free from criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners.
On the non-plain side, we often have the opposite challenge. We don't have as many standards and practices (though we have more than we like to admit), but we manage to be Pharisees without them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "free from criticizing" - surely it is OK to be against prostitution, murder, taxes, gluttony, and drunkenness.... oops, maybe taxes aren't a sin. But I do think racial hatred is, and should be treated like other sins.
Hats Off wrote:One more characteristic of our relationship with God is that of obedience. Along with mercy, compassion, and faith, we must live in obedience to the teachings of Jesus. We sing a German song that interprets something like this "All people gladly hear of the Kingdom of God, and believe that a future place has been prepared for them; but then when they hear that we must also carry the cross of Christ, and be a disciple of Jesus, many fail to continue on that way."
Could you share the original German text?

A mercy and compassion that does not seek redemption, reconciliation, and obedience is not really mercy and compassion. On the other hand, I think love needs to be freely given, with no guarantee of success. We love and entrust the rest to God.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

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GaryK wrote:But wouldn't it be assumed that the true way of peace and love wouldn't have any room for hate? Why is it necessary to include hate?
I think it's sometimes important to name sins. Especially sins that are at the center of an event. Partly because we want the victims of hate to hear that we care, partly because we want to clearly say that we do not support those proclaiming hatred in our name.
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GaryK
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Re: Violence

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:But wouldn't it be assumed that the true way of peace and love wouldn't have any room for hate? Why is it necessary to include hate?
I think it's sometimes important to name sins. Especially sins that are at the center of an event. Partly because we want the victims of hate to hear that we care, partly because we want to clearly say that we do not support those proclaiming hatred in our name.
How do you decide when it's important for the "church" to name such sins? Why should the sin of hate be elevated above other sins? Is it perhaps because this has become such a political hot topic? Once again, all the hate we see happening right now is not new. It's an age old problem.

For the church to join into what is clearly a political hot topic at the moment is to take her focus off of something only the church, under the direction of its Head, can offer. True peace through Jesus and His Kingdom. Perhaps all the hatred we see right now can, at least in part, be attributed to the church having joined into the political process, making it part of the problem rather than the solution. You can't fix a sin problem politically. I'm confident that if the church would get back to focusing on her calling we would see a change in society, which would affect politics as well.
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