Violence

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
MaxPC
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Re: Violence

Post by MaxPC »

GaryK wrote:Why should the sin of hate be elevated above other sins? Is it perhaps because this has become such a political hot topic? Once again, all the hate we see happening right now is not new. It's an age old problem.

For the church to join into what is clearly a political hot topic at the moment is to take her focus off of something only the church, under the direction of its Head, can offer. True peace through Jesus and His Kingdom. Perhaps all the hatred we see right now can, at least in part, be attributed to the church having joined into the political process, making it part of the problem rather than the solution. You can't fix a sin problem politically. I'm confident that if the church would get back to focusing on her calling we would see a change in society, which would affect politics as well.
:up: Amen.
Hats Off wrote:
One more characteristic of our relationship with God is that of obedience. Along with mercy, compassion, and faith, we must live in obedience to the teachings of Jesus. We sing a German song that interprets something like this "All people gladly hear of the Kingdom of God, and believe that a future place has been prepared for them; but then when they hear that we must also carry the cross of Christ, and be a disciple of Jesus, many fail to continue on that way."
And again, Amen :up:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
silentreader
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Re: Violence

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:Consider these verses regarding condemnation -

1) John 3:17 - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.'

2) John 12:47 - "If anyone hears my words and doesn't keep them, I don't condemn him, because I didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it."

3) John 8:11 - 'She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

So God sent Jesus not to condemn the world. In the second verse Jesus said He doesn't condemn those who hear but don't keep His words. And the woman caught in adultery is an example of Him not condemning.

However when it came to the Pharisees Jesus did give them very strong rebukes which some call this condemning them. But was Jesus condemning them or condemning their sinful acts ?

What I think can be a challenge for us is to be sure to look at the actions of sinners (i.e. the hypocrisy of the Pharisees or the hate language against Jews) and if we are denouncing sinful actions we do not condemn those who do these actions. Hate the sin but love the sinner.

Those Jesus strongly rebuked were religious people, the Pharisees, who were enslaving others to rules and regulations of religion, not bringing them into a free and liberating relationship with God which is characterized by mercy, compassion, and faith. Those making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. Those Jesus ever criticized were those of His own religious group who were condemning and criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners. He is our example to follow, right ?

The KKK folk need our love as much as the good living atheist. Do I have that Jesus kind of view toward us sinners ? The unsaved world has no need to love the sinner and will often hate the sinners of certain sins. But if we have the love of Jesus abiding in us, we will see everyone the same, needing to know God's love.
He doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves with our presumptuous, unrepentant sins.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Violence

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:I think it's sometimes important to name sins. Especially sins that are at the center of an event. Partly because we want the victims of hate to hear that we care, partly because we want to clearly say that we do not support those proclaiming hatred in our name.
How do you decide when it's important for the "church" to name such sins? Why should the sin of hate be elevated above other sins? Is it perhaps because this has become such a political hot topic? Once again, all the hate we see happening right now is not new. It's an age old problem.
I suppose partly because we, as a church, need to confess this sin and rid ourselves of it. The world looks at us and calls us "haters", and often they are right, we Christians have often aligned ourselves with those who hate, and often engaged in hatred ourselves, and we are completely in denial of that.

If it's only the sin of the other guy out there, maybe it's less important for us to name it.

But all too often, we have eagerly bought into victim narratives and grievance narratives that say we are the victims, we need to be scared, and we should have no compassion for others out there because it is really our own grievances that count. We have looked at the real victim by the side of the road and said, "that victim should just shut up, I'm tired of hearing it, and I'm busy living my fine religious life". And let me be clear: I think that is happening across the spectrum of churches, I am not pointing fingers in any one direction here.
GaryK wrote:For the church to join into what is clearly a political hot topic at the moment is to take her focus off of something only the church, under the direction of its Head, can offer. True peace through Jesus and His Kingdom. Perhaps all the hatred we see right now can, at least in part, be attributed to the church having joined into the political process, making it part of the problem rather than the solution. You can't fix a sin problem politically.
I agree with this. And I suspect that any time we find ourselves caught up with our own grievances, or obsessed by negative feelings toward some person or group, or unable to have compassion on someone else because our heart is closed to them, that's a pretty good sign that we have been coopted.

Compassion is a pretty important theme in the New Testament. True love comes with compassion and caring. It's the opposite of shutting your heart to someone.
GaryK wrote:I'm confident that if the church would get back to focusing on her calling we would see a change in society, which would affect politics as well.
I agree. To me, compassion, caring and prayer are really important parts of that. To me, rejecting the grievance narratives and hate narratives of politicians are important parts of that. Buying into these narratives takes our eyes off of the true Kingdom, and often makes us gullible and ugly.

Is there a better a way to say that? Is there some way we can help lead the church to repent of this?
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MaxPC
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Re: Violence

Post by MaxPC »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Consider these verses regarding condemnation -

1) John 3:17 - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.'

2) John 12:47 - "If anyone hears my words and doesn't keep them, I don't condemn him, because I didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it."

3) John 8:11 - 'She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

So God sent Jesus not to condemn the world. In the second verse Jesus said He doesn't condemn those who hear but don't keep His words. And the woman caught in adultery is an example of Him not condemning.

However when it came to the Pharisees Jesus did give them very strong rebukes which some call this condemning them. But was Jesus condemning them or condemning their sinful acts ?

What I think can be a challenge for us is to be sure to look at the actions of sinners (i.e. the hypocrisy of the Pharisees or the hate language against Jews) and if we are denouncing sinful actions we do not condemn those who do these actions. Hate the sin but love the sinner.

Those Jesus strongly rebuked were religious people, the Pharisees, who were enslaving others to rules and regulations of religion, not bringing them into a free and liberating relationship with God which is characterized by mercy, compassion, and faith. Those making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. Those Jesus ever criticized were those of His own religious group who were condemning and criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners. He is our example to follow, right ?

The KKK folk need our love as much as the good living atheist. Do I have that Jesus kind of view toward us sinners ? The unsaved world has no need to love the sinner and will often hate the sinners of certain sins. But if we have the love of Jesus abiding in us, we will see everyone the same, needing to know God's love.
He doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves with our presumptuous, unrepentant sins.
:up: FWIW, I'd like to add that when Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees, He was calling them to accountability as the spiritual/religious leadership who had led the people astray. I've always imagined this reprimand as less angry and more the loving yet frustrated tone of a caring parent who is steering the child away from self-destruction: a child who was trained better than his behaviors suggest.

With non-leaders, Jesus took a more patient tone educating them to a better way. He didn't get involved in score-keeping as to who was better or worse. He simply taught and lived out the True Way to Life Eternal.
Last edited by MaxPC on Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Sudsy
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Re: Violence

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Those Jesus strongly rebuked were religious people, the Pharisees, who were enslaving others to rules and regulations of religion, not bringing them into a free and liberating relationship with God which is characterized by mercy, compassion, and faith. Those making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. Those Jesus ever criticized were those of His own religious group who were condemning and criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners. He is our example to follow, right ?
I believe it is a challenge for all of us to remember the words Jesus had for the Pharisees. It is very easy for those of us who hold to standards and traditions to become today's version of the Pharisee. But we still believe that it is possible to maintain a plain Anabaptist lifestyle without making it too difficult for others to enter into a Kingdom way of life. We don't believe it is necessary to give up our standards and practices to be free from criticizing the prostitutes, murderers, tax collectors, gluttons, drunkards, and other sinners.

One more characteristic of our relationship with God is that of obedience. Along with mercy, compassion, and faith, we must live in obedience to the teachings of Jesus. We sing a German song that interprets something like this "All people gladly hear of the Kingdom of God, and believe that a future place has been prepared for them; but then when they hear that we must also carry the cross of Christ, and be a disciple of Jesus, many fail to continue on that way."
I think the Pharisee problem, along with being hypocrites, was their taking pride in their obedience and were scornful of the people who don't live up to their standards. And they lacked real compassion as their attitude was 'try harder' if you are not doing what we believe you should be doing. I agree that obedience is important yet Jesus said in John 12:47 - "If anyone hears my words and doesn't keep them, I don't condemn him, because I didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it." I grew up in a very Christian rules environment and sometimes compassion and mercy was very lacking in the quest to be obedient. Unlike the Pharisees I believe obedience should come from a heart that wants to please and glorify God and not a forced form of obedience. And for those of us now not in a rules type of church, our freedom in Christ can be abused and this too makes it difficult for outsiders to see the Kingdom life as God intends it.
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Hats Off
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Re: Violence

Post by Hats Off »

Bootstrap wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by "free from criticizing" - surely it is OK to be against prostitution, murder, taxes, gluttony, and drunkenness.... oops, maybe taxes aren't a sin. But I do think racial hatred is, and should be treated like other sins.
Hats Off wrote:One more characteristic of our relationship with God is that of obedience. Along with mercy, compassion, and faith, we must live in obedience to the teachings of Jesus. We sing a German song that interprets something like this "All people gladly hear of the Kingdom of God, and believe that a future place has been prepared for them; but then when they hear that we must also carry the cross of Christ, and be a disciple of Jesus, many fail to continue on that way."
Could you share the original German text?
When I used the words "free from criticizing" I was quoting Sudsy. I think it is a variation of hating the sin but loving the sinner.
The song referred to is in the Nachfolge Jesu section of the Lieder Sammlung on page 182, song number 108.
Alle Christen horen gerne von dem Reich der Herrlichkeit
Denn sie meinen schon von ferne das es ihnen sie bereit
Aber wenn sie horen sagen das man Christi kreuz mus tragen
Wenn mon will sein Juger sein O! so stimmen wenig ein.

Lieblich ist es anzuhoren: Ihr beladne kommt zu mir;
Aber das sind harte lehren: Gehet ein zur engen thur;
Hort man Hofianna singen, Lautet's gut; lasft aber klinger:
Kreuz'ge ist's ein and'rer Ton, Un ein Jeder lauft davon.

There are two more verses, along the same line.
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