Rats!!

[steve-in-kville]

Okay... bear with me on this one. Not talking about 4-legged rodents but the 2-legged tattle-tales.

In what situations should a Christian bypass Mathew 18 and rat the person out to church leadership?

I shall provide an example: You see a fellow brother going into the local liquor store and/or come out with a brown bag. He could be buying cooking wine. Could be a little bourbon helps with a cold. He could be a closet alcoholic. Could be a lot of things. What do you do? (Here in Pennsylvania, all wine/liquor is sold at a state-controlled liquor store).

1) Approach them next Sunday at church (or wherever for that matter). Give them a chance to explain it.

2) Rat them out to the ministry.

3) Tell everyone else what you saw (gossip).

Discuss.

[RZehr]

I'd call his cell phone and ask him what's up.

[Bootstrap]

I'm not a plain Menno, and I have no problem with moderate drinking. I think Jesus drank wine. But for the sake of this thread, should I assume the context of a congregation that considers all drinking wrong?

Regardless, if I suspect someone is doing wrong, the first step is almost always to talk to that person directly. When I do that, I should assume that my assumptions may be wrong, there may be an innocent explanation (he also bought vanilla beans and is making vanilla extract), I may not have seen what I thought I saw (he bought something at the store next door and was only walking past the ABC store), or whatever. And I also have to be willing to be shown that I got the facts wrong, I have a wrong attitude toward this brother and judged the situation wrongly because of that, etc. -- if I approach someone to correct, I have to be willing to be corrected. On the other hand, I also have to be ready to stand firm for what is right and bring in others if need be. I don't want to ignore sin because I'm afraid to be direct.

There are a few situations where I might talk to another brother first. For instance, if someone is already getting a lot of pastoral care and has a basically messed up life, it might not be helpful for me to approach them about this, and talking to someone in pastoral authority first might be good. Or I might realize it's hard for me to figure out how to approach this person, so I need help from someone with pastoral authority so I can figure out how to bring it up. Sometimes it might be the kind of thing that would best be brought up by someone else - I usually don't talk to women about what they wear, but when working with Muslim refugees, modesty is helpful, and women know how to talk to each other about that.

But in all of these, I need to ask: what is my pastoral reason for bringing this up to someone else? is this the best person to help with that pastoral need? does this person have the authority and wisdom? is there any danger that I am trying to build myself up at the other person's expense?

All this is about the initial approach, of course. The first step of 3 in Matthew 18.

[justme]

1) Approach them next Sunday at church (or wherever for that matter). Give them a chance to explain it.

I'd call his cell phone and ask him what's up.

why do i need to explain myself to someone who immediately thinks the worst?
it's none of their business what i was doing or not doing in that store.

[Bootstrap]

1) Approach them next Sunday at church (or wherever for that matter). Give them a chance to explain it.

I'd call his cell phone and ask him what's up.

why do i need to explain myself to someone who immediately thinks the worst?
it's none of their business what i was doing or not doing in that store.

Sometimes that's the right response.

The liquor store example isn't the best one for me, especially since I don't have a problem with moderate drinking, but suppose you saw a married pastor acting just a little too close with a much younger, pretty woman who you know is not his wife. Would that change your answer? For what it's worth, I faced that situation at a seminar I was at for a week during the last month. I was not in his church, it wasn't really my place, and there was a language barrier. I kept an eye on the situation, feeling a little uncomfortable.

Over time I realized it was his daughter. I don't know why that wasn't the first thing that came to mind, it was an obvious explanation. Now imagine what would have happened if I had gone up to him and confronted him as a first step ...

How do you decide when to approach someone else about this kind of thing and when to assume it's not your place?

Are there times that you would tell a brother in your own church that it is none of his business? When and how?

[Valerie]

1) Approach them next Sunday at church (or wherever for that matter). Give them a chance to explain it.

I'd call his cell phone and ask him what's up.

why do i need to explain myself to someone who immediately thinks the worst?
it's none of their business what i was doing or not doing in that store.

Help me understand please-
I'm with Boot in that I don't have a problem with having 'a drink' (glass of wine, or even a single beer)- and I have not belonged to churches who preached against this either-

Do you all belong to Churches as this question implies, where having ANY alcohol is considered a sin?
If the answer is 'yes'- and the person is carrying out a brown bag from a 'liquor' store- would your churches consider this a sinful act? If your churches consider shopping in a liquor store, where (I really am not sure of this) the only thing they sell is liquor- then there may be reason for concern if the member is going against their profession of faith against alcohol- from what you all convey, all the brethren dictate the ordinances?

I'm simply trying to understand this scenario better- but 'ratting' to the ministry by far Scriptually seems the wrong thing to do!

[Valerie]

1) Approach them next Sunday at church (or wherever for that matter). Give them a chance to explain it.

I'd call his cell phone and ask him what's up.

why do i need to explain myself to someone who immediately thinks the worst?
it's none of their business what i was doing or not doing in that store.

Sometimes that's the right response.

The liquor store example isn't the best one for me, especially since I don't have a problem with moderate drinking, but suppose you saw a married pastor acting just a little too close with a much younger, pretty woman who you know is not his wife. Would that change your answer? For what it's worth, I faced that situation at a seminar I was at for a week during the last month. I was not in his church, it wasn't really my place, and there was a language barrier. I kept an eye on the situation, feeling a little uncomfortable.

Over time I realized it was his daughter. I don't know why that wasn't the first thing that came to mind, it was an obvious explanation. Now imagine what would have happened if I had gone up to him and confronted him as a first step ...

How do you decide when to approach someone else about this kind of thing and when to assume it's not your place?

Are there times that you would tell a brother in your own church that it is none of his business? When and how?

I think it is Christian love that should help us be on the lookout for the souls of men (and women) and especially those in the faith- satan goes around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
PERSONALLY- i might be taken aback if someone approaches me about something they think I may be in sin about- and I AM totally innocent- however, I don't think I could ever get upset over someone looking out for my soul, and would appreciate the most uncomfortable & awkward step they took to possibly save me from sin.
I think Boot, you were right to show concern for what you witnessed- how many men in pastoral roles have we seen fall in this area???? I've heard of many. We don't want to walk around looking for sin or assuming the worse but our protective roles in looking out for one another should encourage us to at least question if God allowed us to see something- to help prevent.
YEARS ago, a coworker & another coworker- were getting closer in friendship. She was married, and a good friend of mind. I really felt it was the Holy Spirit guiding me to warn her what I felt like was heading in the wrong direction- she actually appreciated it and changed her direction- she admitted that she was finding herself attracted and her own marriage was struggling- perfect 'storm' situation leading to a fall- I didn't feel 'his' intentions were all friendly-we all worked together in same dept and it was awkward for me to approach her but she knew my intention was love & concern & appreciated it and well- later her husband left her for another- but at least she hadn't gone that route-
Sometimes, it could be God puts you in view of someone who needs rescued.

[Bootstrap]

I think it is Christian love that should help us be on the lookout for the souls of men (and women) and especially those in the faith- satan goes around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
PERSONALLY- i might be taken aback if someone approaches me about something they think I may be in sin about- and I AM totally innocent- however, I don't think I could ever get upset over someone looking out for my soul, and would appreciate the most uncomfortable & awkward step they took to possibly save me from sin.

But I think you can go overboard with that approach.

Imagine what would happen if every Christian were constantly evaluating every other Christian to see if they might possibly be in some kind of sin. I think that changes the focus. And it's not something the Bible encourages us to do. I think it would break down trust, which is really important for building community. I think it would make people feel less safe and secure in the community.

We should be in mentoring relationships or fraternal relationships with people we trust to help us evaluate our walk and help us to be on guard against sin. But that's not something every Christian is called to do with every other Christian. Not as I understand it.

[Valerie]

I think it is Christian love that should help us be on the lookout for the souls of men (and women) and especially those in the faith- satan goes around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
PERSONALLY- i might be taken aback if someone approaches me about something they think I may be in sin about- and I AM totally innocent- however, I don't think I could ever get upset over someone looking out for my soul, and would appreciate the most uncomfortable & awkward step they took to possibly save me from sin.

But I think you can go overboard with that approach.

Imagine what would happen if every Christian were constantly evaluating every other Christian to see if they might possibly be in some kind of sin. I think that changes the focus. And it's not something the Bible encourages us to do. I think it would break down trust, which is really important for building community. I think it would make people feel less safe and secure in the community.

We should be in mentoring relationships or fraternal relationships with people we trust to help us evaluate our walk and help us to be on guard against sin. But that's not something every Christian is called to do with every other Christian. Not as I understand it.

Agreed. I didn't mean to convey that we should be Christian detectives-- just that there may be times where seem to be in a Divine appointment and may help someone out of their sin- being in a place not by coincidence, but as God would have it- to help a brother or sister who may be falling.

[Hats Off]

Steve, I know I would be tempted to let it slide this time rather than confront him. However, if I have been fairly comfortable with the brother in the past and also reasonably confident that I could properly handle it, I would cautiously and prayerfully approach him and explain what I saw. If he has a good explanation, he may laugh and explain. On the other hand, if he has been hiding a problem, he may be relieved and ready to confess.

Valerie and Bootstrap, our plain Mennonite churches do not accept any kind of social drinking. I am sure many of us do not believe it would be a sin to have a glass of wine or a bottle of beer, but because of the many side effects of alcohol we have agreed to abstain completely. So the problem we would see with the situation that Steve mentioned is 1) that a brother is disregarding our church standards, and 2) his drinking may indicate some deeper problem and may well lead to even more problems.