Rats!!

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Heirbyadoption
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Re: Rats!!

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Valerie wrote:Help me understand please-
I'm with Boot in that I don't have a problem with having 'a drink' (glass of wine, or even a single beer)- and I have not belonged to churches who preached against this either-

Do you all belong to Churches as this question implies, where having ANY alcohol is considered a sin?
No, our church has never considered all alcohol a sin, but then, we've never been Mennonite either. ;)
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Rats!!

Post by Heirbyadoption »

To the original question, we ask our members to agree to use the Matthew 18 process at the time of their baptism or being received into membership. This was one of the greatest factors in our 2009 expulsion from our previous conference, in that more and more situations (ranging from public "transgression" to things people did in their own home) were not only being taken straight to the ministry, but in many areas then ministry then was actually admonishing or disciplining for these complaints, sometimes without even verifying the truth of the situations, and rarely encouraging the original complainers to return first and address the brother/sister themselves.

Since then, I have personally seen a couple cases where complaints or offenses were given to the ministry and the ministry refused to address the issue until the complaining/offended member went first to the brother/sister in question. Each time this resolved the issue because the offended member either dropped the issue or going to their brother and resolving the issue. Having said that, Biblical sin that is publicly known will be publicly dealt with among us, but even then, we are strongly taught to go to our brother or sister first, in hopes that they will come in repentance rather than having to be brought.
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RZehr
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Re: Rats!!

Post by RZehr »

justme wrote:
1) Approach them next Sunday at church (or wherever for that matter). Give them a chance to explain it.
I'd call his cell phone and ask him what's up.
why do i need to explain myself to someone who immediately thinks the worst?
it's none of their business what i was doing or not doing in that store.
I beg to differ. As a brother it is my business, and it is his responsibility to be able to give an account, and it is actually for both of our good. Because if I don't ask him, I may be more susceptible to assuming the worst, which is extremely unhealthy. Also, I am assuming that since this is my brother, my relationship with him is stronger than the cold-shoulder-none-of-your-business relationship that exists some places.

The benefit in asking immediately is because I am close to neutral at that point. While I am troubled by what I've observed, I haven't had time to formulate some big possibility, or assumption either way. Especially if it turns out to be some innocuous thing. There would be less gossip in the world, and less mistrust if people simply asked directly about what they saw, instead of ignoring it.

If it turns out that what I observed really shouldn't have been done, then it is still better to ask or be asked about it than not because it can be resolved. Like it or not, our actions do effect others in the church. We aren't doing anyone a service by ignoring each other.

Of course I'm saying this all in the context of a church which is taking a stand against all alcohol.
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Sudsy
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Re: Rats!!

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:
justme wrote:
1) Approach them next Sunday at church (or wherever for that matter). Give them a chance to explain it.
I'd call his cell phone and ask him what's up.
why do i need to explain myself to someone who immediately thinks the worst?
it's none of their business what i was doing or not doing in that store.
I beg to differ. As a brother it is my business, and it is his responsibility to be able to give an account, and it is actually for both of our good. Because if I don't ask him, I may be more susceptible to assuming the worst, which is extremely unhealthy. Also, I am assuming that since this is my brother, my relationship with him is stronger than the cold-shoulder-none-of-your-business relationship that exists some places.

The benefit in asking immediately is because I am close to neutral at that point. While I am troubled by what I've observed, I haven't had time to formulate some big possibility, or assumption either way. Especially if it turns out to be some innocuous thing. There would be less gossip in the world, and less mistrust if people simply asked directly about what they saw, instead of ignoring it.

If it turns out that what I observed really shouldn't have been done, then it is still better to ask or be asked about it than not because it can be resolved. Like it or not, our actions do effect others in the church. We aren't doing anyone a service by ignoring each other.

Of course I'm saying this all in the context of a church which is taking a stand against all alcohol.
I agree that those who have signed on to a set of rules to be followed and appear to not be following them will need to be first personally confronted. These kind of church communities feel strong on being seen to follow the same set of rules. They feel responsible to keep each other in line for the benefit of all.

Not a community I would chose as there has been too much history of a judgmental policing attitude that springs up and has caused much dissension and division. If and when we operate in the flesh, we tend to look more for the failures of others than the good things. If this can be done and maintained in operating in the Spirit, love, joy and right living will be manifest as a Kingdom community. Perhaps some have such a community, I haven't been in one. What I have experienced are communities were the best of intentions are not always kept as we are all growing at various levels of spiritual growth. Although gross sinning is not be tolerated, other failings can be and encouragement and love through it all be sought.

In this life we will not reflect the 'glorious church without spot or wrinkle' but we will be presented that way as the bride of Christ. What man can't do, God does. As we strive to be good ambassadors of the Kingdom, our faults and failings will be obvious. But we can point to the one who is faultless and focus ours and others attention on Him.
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steve-in-kville
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Re: Rats!!

Post by steve-in-kville »

Wow, this thread is off to a great start! Lots of good replies.

Personally, I think Matthew 18 is there for a reason... use it before running to leadership being a tattle tale. The only exception I would make to this would be if someone is being hurt (like sexual abuse or something). But that's just me. God hates rats.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Rats!!

Post by Bootstrap »

Hats Off wrote:Valerie and Bootstrap, our plain Mennonite churches do not accept any kind of social drinking. I am sure many of us do not believe it would be a sin to have a glass of wine or a bottle of beer, but because of the many side effects of alcohol we have agreed to abstain completely. So the problem we would see with the situation that Steve mentioned is 1) that a brother is disregarding our church standards, and 2) his drinking may indicate some deeper problem and may well lead to even more problems.
Yes, I know. For the purpose of this thread I think it's helpful to pretend we are all in a church that has those convictions. In my post, I was trying to be clear that I wasn't pretending to have those convictions myself. But I don't think this thread is really about alcohol, that's just an example used in the OP, and it could apply to other things that I do consider sin.
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