Catholic Questions

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Pilgrim
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Re: Catholic Questions

Post by Pilgrim »

At this point I don't want to get into specifics, but if the Mysterium is the last word on Catholic teachings, then I am wondering how the church made some very bad decisions in the past. Why should they over ride the beliefs of other voices in the church who obviously have more common sense and maybe a better grasp of the original Bible languages? Just saying.

Ken
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MaxPC
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Re: Catholic Questions

Post by MaxPC »

To get back to Heir’s original purpose for this thread, that of understanding the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I’m hoping my explanation here is adequate as we’ve had a heavy week and I’m tired.
Heirbyadoption wrote:And I actually do grasp how the CCC works. But in light of this:
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."
I find myself stepping back to CCC81/82.
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

The question that comes up for me here - as you (Max) understand the official position of the HRCC here, is Tradition given equal status/authority to Scripture, or is it not?
The answer to your question can be found in Article 3: Sacred Scripture Paragraphs 101-141. Specifically, the Tradition mentioned here refers to the Tradition of the Apostles.
120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New…
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.
122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95
123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).
124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament"96 which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.97
125 The Gospels are the heart of all the Scriptures "because they are our principal source for the life and teaching of the Incarnate Word, our Savior".98
126 We can distinguish three stages in the formation of the Gospels:
1. The life and teaching of Jesus. The Church holds firmly that the four Gospels, "whose historicity she unhesitatingly affirms, faithfully hand on what Jesus, the Son of God, while he lived among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation, until the day when he was taken up."99
2. The oral tradition. "For, after the ascension of the Lord, the apostles handed on to their hearers what he had said and done, but with that fuller understanding which they, instructed by the glorious events of Christ and enlightened by the Spirit of truth, now enjoyed."100
3. The written Gospels. "The sacred authors, in writing the four Gospels, selected certain of the many elements which had been handed on, either orally or already in written form; others they synthesized or explained with an eye to the situation of the churches, the while sustaining the form of preaching, but always in such a fashion that they have told us the honest truth about Jesus."101
127 The fourfold Gospel holds a unique place in the Church, as is evident both in the veneration which the liturgy accords it and in the surpassing attraction it has exercised on the saints at all times:
  • There is no doctrine which could be better, more precious and more splendid than the text of the Gospel. Behold and retain what our Lord and Master, Christ, has taught by his words and accomplished by his deeds.102
    But above all it's the gospels that occupy my mind when I'm at prayer; my poor soul has so many needs, and yet this is the one thing needful. I'm always finding fresh lights there; hidden meanings which had meant nothing to me hitherto.


Here’s another section from Article 2 that may help with the understanding of the relationship between Apostolic Tradition and Scripture:
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32
In the apostolic preaching. . .
76 In keeping with the Lord's command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
- orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";33
- in writing "by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing".
34
. . . (continued in apostolic succession)
77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36
78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."
Apostolic Tradition, that which was handed down by the Apostles and that first generation of Church Fathers assisted them in filtering out the true from the fake books that had begun circulating even at that time (can we call it “fake good news”?). So in that sense the Apostolic Tradition is both distinct and closely connected to Scripture (not superior or inferior; equal or unequal) in that it helped inform the early Church which Gospels and books were true and which were fake and included the help of the Holy Spirit: thus our Deposit of Faith (unchangeable core teachings) were established. (An aside: some of these fake gospels still turn up from time to time in archaeological digs.)

The Holy Spirit also informs the Apostolic Traditions in discerning the True Teachings (Deposit of Faith) as handed down from Christ and the Apostles. The duty of our bishops and Magisterium is to guard against attempts to change the Scriptural teachings and Apostolic Traditions. It’s a very serious responsibility: any bishop who fails that responsibility is removed from his office and in many cases, excommunicated. It has happened even in the recent past because man is a fault-filled creature: when he abandons the Holy Spirit and the graces imparted to him by God, he is lost.

Every denomination has had men and women who failed their church, after all even Jesus had Judas the Betrayer among His Apostles and disciples. That's guaranteed to happen because of sin. What is truly important is if the denomination or church steps forward and corrects the errors and failures and guards the Faith Once Delivered by Christ and continued through the Apostolic Tradition.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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