Morals & ethics behind supporting certain mission efforts?

[Sudsy]

That should not surprise you.

If the people in question had the discipline, habit, and socialization to show up for something like a Sunday church service without being compelled, then they would also have the discipline, habit, and socialization to show up for job interviews, work, housing interviews, and so forth.

Clearly they have none of those things or they wouldn't be on the streets living like addicted rats.

In my mind, the only way to help most of these people (the visible homeless) is by compulsion. FORCE them to get mandatory rehab, mental health care, etc. And probably the only way to do that is through the legal system. Arrest them, throw them in jail, and then use mandatory rehab and mental health care as off-ramps out of prison. Most of them aren't going to turn their lives around voluntarily.

The invisible homeless are a different story. These are the ordinary people down on their luck who might be living out of their cars or whatever, but are still functioning members of society, often working and just trying to get their lives together. They are the ones who can be helped by voluntary programs.

I agree that compelling people to show up for church is important and could be one of the issues. In my experience sometimes this takes more than an invitation but actually going and picking them up and bringing them to church to sit and listen to the Gospel. It also takes mingling with them during the week and talking to them about Jesus who can rescue them from the sins that bind us.

I disagree with compulsion methods but rather use compassion and prayer believing that some will listen and see if salvation from the effects of sin really works. My father was one who finally came out of curiosity and wanted to find out what made these people the way they were. Why so much joy and peace in these Christians. He had many invitations before this but one day he decided to check things out for himself and God miraculously saved him and in a short time he was in street ministry. Similar type conversions happened in that church and another church I was in.

This is not about making life better for some who still end up in hell. It is about the power of God that can radically change a person'e life. It isn't about man's programs to try to improve one's life but rather what God can do to them if they give Him a chance. There isn't anyone in any condition that God cannot save and live in them in the power of the Holy Spirit to radically change their life.

But who believes that ? It would seem many Christians don't and fall back on man's self improvement programs to solve the problems or they just don't care to be involved in patient soul winning work.

I'm not saying that religion doesn't play a role. But these sorts of places like Kensington in Philly and the equivalent neighborhoods around the country are riddled with various missions. And none of that has turned anything around. Addiction is a more powerful demon than evangelism can deal with in most cases. I think there is an argument that many of these people need to get right mentally and physically before they are going to be ready to hear any higher message. And in many cases that is going to require coercion (tough love) rather than the enabling that comes with ham reduction approaches.

I don't know what all people are calling mission work today but I do know of some that are not depending on what God can do that they cannot do with their human ways. Addiction, I believe, is not more powerful than what God can do in anyone, right where they are at. This argument that God cannot work miracles of salvation without man first getting a person's mind capable of hearing a higher message, to me, is limiting what God can and will do if we just share the message of the Gospel. It is the power of God unto salvation the scripture says.

As the story goes of the little boy throwing starfish back into the ocean when there are millions he cannot help to save, his reply was 'it made a difference for that one'. That, is what mission work is about. Perhaps the lack of results is more due to the lack of belief in what God can do and it has more to do with the quality of faith of those in mission work. When we start to think we can do more than our part in changing other's lives, I think we are going down a wrong path. We have a role but real change is a miracle of God.

[RZehr]

I think the intentions may be good to ease the sufferings and spread of these things in the world but what puzzles me is when there seems to be no or little 'deliverance' ministry that believes that God can remove any addiction in His supernatural power and this is not where the primary efforts are made.

I am just getting involved again and attending the Salvation Army and one of their leaders mentioned to me yesterday that none, yes zero, of the people that come for help on a weekly basis, and there are many, show up for the church services on Sunday. This is interesting and I want to explore this more. I remember in my younger years where mission work would require those hooked on drugs, alcohol, whatever to sit through a presentation of the Gospel and come for prayers of deliverance from these things. The Salvation Army began focused on sharing the gospel of Jesus by addressing what was believed to be the most important human needs of 'soup, soap, and salvation'. Today it would seem the 'soup' has become the dominant focus which I think would include drug assistance of sorts.

Easing the pain of some in this short life yet believing they will suffer in torment in hell, with no help, if they don't turn to Jesus and are born again seems to me to be ignoring the big picture. And perhaps the reason for putting efforts to ease the pain of this temporal life and not focusing on eternity is that the belief in hell as described in scripture just isn't believed anymore. Believed in the sense of heart belief that results in accompanying action. I think satan is quite content, when whatever 'good' things we do, still are not saving people from hell. I know I, too, am adversely affected by this seemingly downplay on eternity and the primary focus on the temporal.

I would love to hear from others your thoughts on mission work without the Gospel. What kind of Gospel are we preaching and believing in. One that will miraculously take away the very desire for drugs or a gospel that is just some means of stating a belief and that has little to no impact on our lives now ? I think the concepts of being born again is what we really need to come to grips with and just what we believe the power of God can and will do in the lives of anyone regardless of their current state.

I grew up in a church with a 'deliverance' focus that believed in the power of God to radically change lives and many had testimonies of the life before Christ and what God had and was still doing in their life. My parents had miraculous, born again, life changing cnversions where various vices of sin were taken away by the Lord. How many of these are we seeing today in our churches ? If not many, why not ?

Is there any account in the New Testament where a miraculous deliverance took place without faith?

Wow lots to respond to since my last post. To your question. I'm not sure I understand. I do believe faith was involved in all of the miracles.

Because it seems like you are, for lack of a better word, “blaming” Christians for not having/being committed/faithful enough, else we would see miraculous results.
And I am suggesting that perhaps the “blame” (responsibility?) might more Biblically lie squarely on the shoulders of the addict for not having the faith/desire to desperately call on God to help them.
God doesn’t save people who don’t want saved, and/or don’t have faith. Just the same way that every sinful behavior I make is mine, and not someone else’s.

[Judas Maccabeus]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/student-rais ... 43354.html

Yeah. Just dealt with a homeless person that one of our congregants picked up from a doorway on the way to church. Dry clothes, fed, gift cards to provide for the next two meals. Tried to hook her up with a Christian group that runs a woman's housing and rehab program. Would not wait for their time when they do intakes, would have been another 30 mins. My guess is she needed a fix, and she sure was not going to get that with us. Left. Since she insisted on leaving, I gave her exact bus fare, and directions. Was not interested in being driven there, and since it is a women's place, you have to contact them before they open the door.

That is the way it normally goes. I have not actually gotten one to the program yet. They simply want the help they want, and are not interested in anything else, particularly if it involves "rules" of any sort.

The day to day of an urban congregation.

[steve-in-kville]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/student-rais ... 43354.html

Yeah. Just dealt with a homeless person that one of our congregants picked up from a doorway on the way to church. Dry clothes, fed, gift cards to provide for the next two meals. Tried to hook her up with a Christian group that runs a woman's housing and rehab program. Would not wait for their time when they do intakes, would have been another 30 mins. My guess is she needed a fix, and she sure was not going to get that with us. Left. Since she insisted on leaving, I gave her exact bus fare, and directions. Was not interested in being driven there, and since it is a women's place, you have to contact them before they open the door.

That is the way it normally goes. I have not actually gotten one to the program yet. They simply want the help they want, and are not interested in anything else, particularly if it involves "rules" of any sort.

The day to day of an urban congregation.

Unfortunately, that's the best you can do for someone in that situation.

[Josh]

Unfortunately, that's the best you can do for someone in that situation.

I've hit a point where I don't think enabling an addiction is doing good at all. That's why I like working with places that have rather strict rules, so I know the help will actually be helping.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Unfortunately, that's the best you can do for someone in that situation.

I've hit a point where I don't think enabling an addiction is doing good at all. That's why I like working with places that have rather strict rules, so I know the help will actually be helping.

The places and programs that I try to get people to go to are actually quite strict, and have rules, which they enforce. If you follow the rules, they will actually let someone stay for 30 days, while they try to help them get their lives back together.

This is known on the street. That is why few are willing to go there. Most are looking for their next fix. I just wish they still had bus tokens, so I did not even have to give them cash bus fare.

Enabling is just a stop to death and likely hell.

[Sudsy]

This reminds me of the 'Good Samaritan' story and his efforts to help the man. This all goes back to the questions who is our neighbour and what must one do to obtain eternal life. The priest and the Levite, religious people, just passed by the needy person by going to the other side of the street. However, the Samaritan when he saw him 'he felt compassion' on him and made considerable efforts to help him. Then the question was asked by Jesus which of these 3 people was a neighbour to him and the correct answer was 'the one who had compassion on him'.

The story doesn't tell us what happened after that. Did the man who was helped even thank the Samaritan ? We don't know. This story suggests to me that I'm to love my neighbour as myself and be a good neighbour to whoever I am able to help in their need. Thinking about those who have, for some reason(s), got addicted to drugs. Often in trying to escape the sufferings of sin and getting some temporary relief, they get addicted.

I think the key word in this story is 'compassion'. Obviously, the priest and the Levite lacked compassion. Being religious doesn't mean you really care about the state of others. But being born again is a different story and is life changing when we have a new heart towards God and our neighbours. We don't see people as 'they should know better' or 'they need to clean up their act' but rather someone that 'but for the grace of God, there go I'.

And there is something powerful beyond helping someone in their immediate need and that is prayer. I remember hearing about when my unchurched parents became Christians from a life of various sinning, there was a group of believers praying every time they met and also in their private prayer and fasting times. They did not give up on them and believed in their hearts God would miraculously save them. They knew how to pray in faith. How much intense prayer is being made today ? How much fasting is being done to see others saved ? Or are we trusting in our human programs to rescue sinners. Have we been travailing in prayer for God to open their eyes and seek Him ?

I had mentioned this Leonard Ravenhill previously. Now there is a preacher who put much emphasis on prayer. Another of his quotes - 'Prayer is the most unexplored area of the Christian life.' I know for myself I am lacking in this area. My guess is a major factor in not seeing the results of drug addicted people being set free has much to do with the lack of prayers of faith being made on their behalf.

[steve-in-kville]

Unfortunately, that's the best you can do for someone in that situation.

I've hit a point where I don't think enabling an addiction is doing good at all. That's why I like working with places that have rather strict rules, so I know the help will actually be helping.

The places and programs that I try to get people to go to are actually quite strict, and have rules, which they enforce. If you follow the rules, they will actually let someone stay for 30 days, while they try to help them get their lives back together.

This is known on the street. That is why few are willing to go there. Most are looking for their next fix. I just wish they still had bus tokens, so I did not even have to give them cash bus fare.

Enabling is just a stop to death and likely hell.

Addicts have to want to quit. Being guilted into sobriety just causes them to "white knuckle" through it, thus opened themselves up to relapse.

[Ken]

I've hit a point where I don't think enabling an addiction is doing good at all. That's why I like working with places that have rather strict rules, so I know the help will actually be helping.

The places and programs that I try to get people to go to are actually quite strict, and have rules, which they enforce. If you follow the rules, they will actually let someone stay for 30 days, while they try to help them get their lives back together.

This is known on the street. That is why few are willing to go there. Most are looking for their next fix. I just wish they still had bus tokens, so I did not even have to give them cash bus fare.

Enabling is just a stop to death and likely hell.

Addicts have to want to quit. Being guilted into sobriety just causes them to "white knuckle" through it, thus opened themselves up to relapse.

Or they need to be forced to quit. Some form of coercion is often necessary.

There have been a lot of studies on the effectiveness of coercive approaches versus voluntary approaches to drug rehab. And coercion is often the only thing that works with some people. And it is often more successful than purely voluntary approaches.

[Sudsy]

I've hit a point where I don't think enabling an addiction is doing good at all. That's why I like working with places that have rather strict rules, so I know the help will actually be helping.

The places and programs that I try to get people to go to are actually quite strict, and have rules, which they enforce. If you follow the rules, they will actually let someone stay for 30 days, while they try to help them get their lives back together.

This is known on the street. That is why few are willing to go there. Most are looking for their next fix. I just wish they still had bus tokens, so I did not even have to give them cash bus fare.

Enabling is just a stop to death and likely hell.

Addicts have to want to quit. Being guilted into sobriety just causes them to "white knuckle" through it, thus opened themselves up to relapse.

From my own family experiences, my father and my uncle both had addictions before they were born again. My uncle especially was what they call a 'chain smoker' as he had a number of smokes on the go at the same time. The next day after their separate conversions they both had their first smoke as repulsive to them for the very first time. My father's speech was constantly filled with swear words before being born again. My mom would constantly tell him to quit his swearing. But the very first day he became a Christian, he cursed and immediately felt convicted. He asked God to forgive him and God immediately gave him the power from that day on to never curse again. Both of them had no desire whatsoever to give up these habits before they were born again. I have heard similar testimonies of new believers involving drugs, alcohol, smoking, gambling, lying, anger and various other addictions they had.

So, I believe that when someone truly puts their faith and trust in Jesus to save them from their sins that the scripture says the Holy Spirit comes to live within them and He begins to work in them to help them in their new life. He convicts us of sin and will empower us to overcome it. Sometimes He just takes the desires away in a miracle of grace. Other times, it seems to me, He leaves some struggles to keep us turning to Him for our help.

I think of Paul and his 'thorn in the flesh'. Some believe this was an eye problem. I tend to think it was more of an addiction problem. Perhaps a certain attitude toward certain people or who knows. I think we all can have certain addictive behaviours in our old fleshly man. Instead of God removing it, He instead will give us the grace to live with it and keep leaning on Him to help us control it.

My guess is that many who do not overcome serious physical and mental addictions might have a head belief in God as their escape way to avoid hell but have not actually received Christ into their hearts in a born again way. Outside of taking on new religious practises they don't really have a personal relationship with God. There doesn't seem to be much expectation today in some groups as to the impact being born again will have and I don't hear this term used very often anymore.

Anyway I'm just rambling on but would love to hear more thoughts from others on this. Do you know personally of an unchurched person who became a Christian and quickly experienced radical changes in their lives ?