Morals & ethics behind supporting certain mission efforts?

[Biblical Anabaptist]

Interesting. I believe City Light would be Charity, right?

Wilmer Martin from Lehman St, Lebanon PA assisted them in getting started.

This man you speak of... would he have been EPMC at one time?

Yes, Wilmer was an EMPC minister

[steve-in-kville]

Wilmer Martin from Lehman St, Lebanon PA assisted them in getting started.

This man you speak of... would he have been EPMC at one time?

Yes, Wilmer was an EMPC minister

If this is who I think it is, I visited his congregation and had dinner with him. Can't think what congregation he was part of but it was northern Lebanon County or Berks maybe. I've lost touch with those circles.

[Sudsy]

Here is my dilemma: I found a mission that goes out into the streets and helps these people with food and housing, counseling, etc. The kicker is, they supply these poor folks with clean needles and crack pipes to help stop the spread HIV and such. To that end, they also distribute Narcan to people on the street. I get it, really I do, but would this qualify as "enabling" the addiction?

I think the intentions may be good to ease the sufferings and spread of these things in the world but what puzzles me is when there seems to be no or little 'deliverance' ministry that believes that God can remove any addiction in His supernatural power and this is not where the primary efforts are made.

I am just getting involved again and attending the Salvation Army and one of their leaders mentioned to me yesterday that none, yes zero, of the people that come for help on a weekly basis, and there are many, show up for the church services on Sunday. This is interesting and I want to explore this more. I remember in my younger years where mission work would require those hooked on drugs, alcohol, whatever to sit through a presentation of the Gospel and come for prayers of deliverance from these things. The Salvation Army began focused on sharing the gospel of Jesus by addressing what was believed to be the most important human needs of 'soup, soap, and salvation'. Today it would seem the 'soup' has become the dominant focus which I think would include drug assistance of sorts.

Easing the pain of some in this short life yet believing they will suffer in torment in hell, with no help, if they don't turn to Jesus and are born again seems to me to be ignoring the big picture. And perhaps the reason for putting efforts to ease the pain of this temporal life and not focusing on eternity is that the belief in hell as described in scripture just isn't believed anymore. Believed in the sense of heart belief that results in accompanying action. I think satan is quite content, when whatever 'good' things we do, still are not saving people from hell. I know I, too, am adversely affected by this seemingly downplay on eternity and the primary focus on the temporal.

I would love to hear from others your thoughts on mission work without the Gospel. What kind of Gospel are we preaching and believing in. One that will miraculously take away the very desire for drugs or a gospel that is just some means of stating a belief and that has little to no impact on our lives now ? I think the concepts of being born again is what we really need to come to grips with and just what we believe the power of God can and will do in the lives of anyone regardless of their current state.

I grew up in a church with a 'deliverance' focus that believed in the power of God to radically change lives and many had testimonies of the life before Christ and what God had and was still doing in their life. My parents had miraculous, born again, life changing cnversions where various vices of sin were taken away by the Lord. How many of these are we seeing today in our churches ? If not many, why not ?

[Biblical Anabaptist]

This man you speak of... would he have been EPMC at one time?

Yes, Wilmer was an EMPC minister

If this is who I think it is, I visited his congregation and had dinner with him. Can't think what congregation he was part of but it was northern Lebanon County or Berks maybe. I've lost touch with those circles.

I think he was at Little Mountain at Fredericksburg

[steve-in-kville]

Yes, Wilmer was an EMPC minister

If this is who I think it is, I visited his congregation and had dinner with him. Can't think what congregation he was part of but it was northern Lebanon County or Berks maybe. I've lost touch with those circles.

I think he was at Little Mountain at Fredericksburg

That would be it. Come to think of it, I think I worked with him back in my woodshop days. Lost track of most of those folks.

[RZehr]

Here is my dilemma: I found a mission that goes out into the streets and helps these people with food and housing, counseling, etc. The kicker is, they supply these poor folks with clean needles and crack pipes to help stop the spread HIV and such. To that end, they also distribute Narcan to people on the street. I get it, really I do, but would this qualify as "enabling" the addiction?

I think the intentions may be good to ease the sufferings and spread of these things in the world but what puzzles me is when there seems to be no or little 'deliverance' ministry that believes that God can remove any addiction in His supernatural power and this is not where the primary efforts are made.

I am just getting involved again and attending the Salvation Army and one of their leaders mentioned to me yesterday that none, yes zero, of the people that come for help on a weekly basis, and there are many, show up for the church services on Sunday. This is interesting and I want to explore this more. I remember in my younger years where mission work would require those hooked on drugs, alcohol, whatever to sit through a presentation of the Gospel and come for prayers of deliverance from these things. The Salvation Army began focused on sharing the gospel of Jesus by addressing what was believed to be the most important human needs of 'soup, soap, and salvation'. Today it would seem the 'soup' has become the dominant focus which I think would include drug assistance of sorts.

Easing the pain of some in this short life yet believing they will suffer in torment in hell, with no help, if they don't turn to Jesus and are born again seems to me to be ignoring the big picture. And perhaps the reason for putting efforts to ease the pain of this temporal life and not focusing on eternity is that the belief in hell as described in scripture just isn't believed anymore. Believed in the sense of heart belief that results in accompanying action. I think satan is quite content, when whatever 'good' things we do, still are not saving people from hell. I know I, too, am adversely affected by this seemingly downplay on eternity and the primary focus on the temporal.

I would love to hear from others your thoughts on mission work without the Gospel. What kind of Gospel are we preaching and believing in. One that will miraculously take away the very desire for drugs or a gospel that is just some means of stating a belief and that has little to no impact on our lives now ? I think the concepts of being born again is what we really need to come to grips with and just what we believe the power of God can and will do in the lives of anyone regardless of their current state.

I grew up in a church with a 'deliverance' focus that believed in the power of God to radically change lives and many had testimonies of the life before Christ and what God had and was still doing in their life. My parents had miraculous, born again, life changing cnversions where various vices of sin were taken away by the Lord. How many of these are we seeing today in our churches ? If not many, why not ?

Is there any account in the New Testament where a miraculous deliverance took place without faith?

[Ken]

I am just getting involved again and attending the Salvation Army and one of their leaders mentioned to me yesterday that none, yes zero, of the people that come for help on a weekly basis, and there are many, show up for the church services on Sunday. This is interesting and I want to explore this more.

That should not surprise you.

If the people in question had the discipline, habit, and socialization to show up for something like a Sunday church service without being compelled, then they would also have the discipline, habit, and socialization to show up for job interviews, work, housing interviews, and so forth.

Clearly they have none of those things or they wouldn't be on the streets living like addicted rats.

In my mind, the only way to help most of these people (the visible homeless) is by compulsion. FORCE them to get mandatory rehab, mental health care, etc. And probably the only way to do that is through the legal system. Arrest them, throw them in jail, and then use mandatory rehab and mental health care as off-ramps out of prison. Most of them aren't going to turn their lives around voluntarily.

The invisible homeless are a different story. These are the ordinary people down on their luck who might be living out of their cars or whatever, but are still functioning members of society, often working and just trying to get their lives together. They are the ones who can be helped by voluntary programs.

[Josh]

I see zero problems with vagrancy laws and prison work camps for repeat offenders. The simple fact is, nobody HAS to use illegal street drugs, commit acts of violence, or yell at passersby.

Work also provides dignity and in a compulsory setting, would steer such people into more healthy life habits. And it would pay for the cost of incarcerating them.

[Ken]

I see zero problems with vagrancy laws and prison work camps for repeat offenders. The simple fact is, nobody HAS to use illegal street drugs, commit acts of violence, or yell at passersby.

Work also provides dignity and in a compulsory setting, would steer such people into more healthy life habits. And it would pay for the cost of incarcerating them.

Penal work laws have been found to be unconstitutional for people who have not been tried and convicted of a crime. It is considered involuntary servitude or slavery in violation of the 13th Amendment.

So yes, you can round people up off the streets and detain them for violating vagrancy laws, but you can't actually send them to work camps unless you first put them on trial and convict them and the hard labor is part of their actual sentence. That might be possible in some cases, but most of the vagrants found on the streets aren't going to be guilty of serious enough crimes to be sentenced to mandatory hard labor.

[ohio jones]

So yes, you can round people up off the streets and detain them for violating vagrancy laws, but you can't actually send them to work camps unless you first put them on trial and convict them and the hard labor is part of their actual sentence. That might be possible in some cases, but most of the vagrants found on the streets aren't going to be guilty of serious enough crimes to be sentenced to mandatory hard labor.

Making license plates (the stereotypical prison job) isn't really hard labor. Similar occupations would be possible as well; it doesn't need to be wielding a pickax. Also, around here it's common to see work-release prisoners in orange striped uniforms mowing or picking up trash on public property. It can be made optional, with incentive$ to make it an attractive option.