Occupations that are uniquely objectionable to Conservative Anabaptists

[ken_sylvania]

Fed-Ex/UPS Delivery Driver - Due to requirements to deliver all kinds of goods, also required uniform showing off the bare legs and bare arms isn't modest.

Any other corporate LTL truck driving job - again due to requirement to deliver all kinds of goods including weapons, alcohol, etc

Print shop - would want to have an agreement with owner that employee isn't required to assist with objectionable projects - Kinkos probably wouldn't be an option but a locally owned shop might be OK especially if owner is conservative or sympathetic to conservative viewpoint. If a print shop owner, some would refuse work considered indecent or patriotic or warmongering. I rather doubt most conservative Mennonite print shops would be willing to print the Trump bible, partly because they like to actually get paid for their work and partly because they would object to the extra-Biblical content.

As a truck owner/operator - military freight, beer tanks, beer/wine distillery equipment. On military freight, some would refuse to haul anything for the military, some would simply refuse to haul any guns or ammo. Some would refuse to haul anything in the supply chain, others would haul parts for suppliers to the military even if they wouldn't haul for the military itself.

Fire Dept - depending on the area, some fire departments rely on raffles, bingo, tractor pulls, etc for fund raising. Also some require life insurance for their members which most conservative Mennos find objectionable.

Bank loan officer - if loan officer is going to deny a loan for moral reasons the bank wants it to be for the moral reasons decided by its board or officers rather than based on Biblical morals.

[Soloist]

I can agree with those.

Technically I’m paid because of Tricare but I have no conviction over it. I take care of a disabled child and the military pays me. No oath, no allegiance and I never will have to force anyone to do anything. I subject myself to rules of a military base, but I don’t need to be concerned that my car or person could be searched.

Someone could have a conviction against working for Tricare pay and I can respect them for taking a stance even though I don’t feel the same.

My prior job I bailed on because my client/patient was asking for assistance with aspects of his care I couldn’t morally support so I removed myself from that situation as he couldn’t respect my wishes.

[Ken]

I assume that selling crops to the local co-op was nothing out of the usual for them?

As far as I know, my grandfather sold his grain for the highest price he could find. Which was usually (but not always) the local farmer's co-op of which he was a member. And when the war came along it was so profitable that they were able to buy another farm. As Upton Sinclair famously wrote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

I think that closest example in my lifetime of conservative Anabaptists across a broad range of occupations profiting broadly from macroeconomic conditions is probably Covid. I heard that CAM's donations at one point during Covid were up by 40%, credited in large part to excess Mennonite & Amish business profits during the pandemic.

To me, this is a hopeful indicator that if war profits again would find their way into conservative Anabaptist bank accounts whether intended or not, that they would be likely to donate much of it to charity.

Did conservative Anabaptist businesses take advantage of the Federal COVID PPP loan and loan forgiveness program? I don't know the answer to that question but your mentioning of COVID made me curious. And if so, were there religious objections to doing so?

[ken_sylvania]

As far as I know, my grandfather sold his grain for the highest price he could find. Which was usually (but not always) the local farmer's co-op of which he was a member. And when the war came along it was so profitable that they were able to buy another farm. As Upton Sinclair famously wrote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

I think that closest example in my lifetime of conservative Anabaptists across a broad range of occupations profiting broadly from macroeconomic conditions is probably Covid. I heard that CAM's donations at one point during Covid were up by 40%, credited in large part to excess Mennonite & Amish business profits during the pandemic.

To me, this is a hopeful indicator that if war profits again would find their way into conservative Anabaptist bank accounts whether intended or not, that they would be likely to donate much of it to charity.

Did conservative Anabaptist businesses take advantage of the Federal COVID PPP loan and loan forgiveness program? I don't know the answer to that question but your mentioning of COVID made me curious. And if so, were there religious objections to doing so?

Some participated. Many refused because of convictions against accepting direct monetary aid from the government.

[ken_sylvania]

There are quite a few conservative Mennonite farmers (and others) who refuse membership in co-operatives due to considering it an unequal yoke.

[mike]

As far as I know, my grandfather sold his grain for the highest price he could find. Which was usually (but not always) the local farmer's co-op of which he was a member. And when the war came along it was so profitable that they were able to buy another farm. As Upton Sinclair famously wrote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

I think that closest example in my lifetime of conservative Anabaptists across a broad range of occupations profiting broadly from macroeconomic conditions is probably Covid. I heard that CAM's donations at one point during Covid were up by 40%, credited in large part to excess Mennonite & Amish business profits during the pandemic.

To me, this is a hopeful indicator that if war profits again would find their way into conservative Anabaptist bank accounts whether intended or not, that they would be likely to donate much of it to charity.

Did conservative Anabaptist businesses take advantage of the Federal COVID PPP loan and loan forgiveness program? I don't know the answer to that question but your mentioning of COVID made me curious. And if so, were there religious objections to doing so?

I know of some that did but I believe that the majority did not. I myself did not, not on religious grounds but possibly on moral/ethical grounds, although I wished later that I would have. It did not make sense to me to borrow money from the government to "protect my employees' paychecks" when we were extraordinarily busy and profitable and had plenty of cash to go around. However friends in business (not Mennonites) pulled hundreds of thousands in PPP and sat on the money as a rainy day fund and eventually did who knows what with it. It wasn't clear at the time whether that money would have be be repaid or whether it would be forgiven. I wished later that I would have applied for the program and used it for bonus pay. Businesses who actually were negatively impacted by Covid or had to close altogether should have been the ones to benefit. But no, many businesses who were doing unusually well just made that much more money. It was ridiculous, and I never want to hear a word from those guys against welfare recipients mooching off the government. It was a big, fat corporate welfare program that benefited lots of people who did not need it.

[ken_sylvania]

I think that closest example in my lifetime of conservative Anabaptists across a broad range of occupations profiting broadly from macroeconomic conditions is probably Covid. I heard that CAM's donations at one point during Covid were up by 40%, credited in large part to excess Mennonite & Amish business profits during the pandemic.

To me, this is a hopeful indicator that if war profits again would find their way into conservative Anabaptist bank accounts whether intended or not, that they would be likely to donate much of it to charity.

Did conservative Anabaptist businesses take advantage of the Federal COVID PPP loan and loan forgiveness program? I don't know the answer to that question but your mentioning of COVID made me curious. And if so, were there religious objections to doing so?

I know of some that did but I believe that the majority did not. I myself did not, not on religious grounds but possibly on moral/ethical grounds, although I wished later that I would have. It did not make sense to me to borrow money from the government to "protect my employees' paychecks" when we were extraordinarily busy and profitable and had plenty of cash to go around. However friends in business (not Mennonites) pulled hundreds of thousands in PPP and sat on the money as a rainy day fund and eventually did who knows what with it. It wasn't clear at the time whether that money would have be be repaid or whether it would be forgiven. I wished later that I would have applied for the program and used it for bonus pay. Businesses who actually were negatively impacted by Covid or had to close altogether should have been the ones to benefit. But no, many businesses who were doing unusually well just made that much more money. It was ridiculous, and I never want to hear a word from those guys against welfare recipients mooching off the government. It was a big, fat corporate welfare program that benefited lots of people who did not need it.

As part of the application you would have had to certify that "Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support the ongoing operations of the Applicant." Is that a certification that you wish you had made?

[Josh]

I didn’t sign up for PPP because of that exact language.

In retrospect, I left a lot of money on the table… and I agree with ks here, anyone who took PPP funds had better not ever complain about much cheaper forms of welfare for poor people. PPP handouts were often in the millions, paid directly to rich people.

[mike]

Did conservative Anabaptist businesses take advantage of the Federal COVID PPP loan and loan forgiveness program? I don't know the answer to that question but your mentioning of COVID made me curious. And if so, were there religious objections to doing so?

I know of some that did but I believe that the majority did not. I myself did not, not on religious grounds but possibly on moral/ethical grounds, although I wished later that I would have. It did not make sense to me to borrow money from the government to "protect my employees' paychecks" when we were extraordinarily busy and profitable and had plenty of cash to go around. However friends in business (not Mennonites) pulled hundreds of thousands in PPP and sat on the money as a rainy day fund and eventually did who knows what with it. It wasn't clear at the time whether that money would have be be repaid or whether it would be forgiven. I wished later that I would have applied for the program and used it for bonus pay. Businesses who actually were negatively impacted by Covid or had to close altogether should have been the ones to benefit. But no, many businesses who were doing unusually well just made that much more money. It was ridiculous, and I never want to hear a word from those guys against welfare recipients mooching off the government. It was a big, fat corporate welfare program that benefited lots of people who did not need it.

As part of the application you would have had to certify that "Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support the ongoing operations of the Applicant." Is that a certification that you wish you had made?

I have no idea what the certifications were that you had to make. I know that the government was extremely generous in the consideration of what qualified as economic uncertainty. I assume basically anybody that applied got the funds. Very early on in Covid, when we had no idea whether we would be shut down for in-person operation, I could have said we were under extreme economic uncertainty. And they were doing shut-downs of in-person restaurants even late in 2020. It was only with hindsight that I can say it was a time of exceptional sales/profits.

I would have been comfortable with making that statement and then giving it all to employees as bonus pay. It might likely have helped retain some employees that quit because of difficult working conditions during the pandemic.

[Josh]

Yes, in retrospect, I would have much rather have taken the "free" money (at the time, it was being described as a loan), and distributed a bonus to hard workers.

I was also working for an employer at the time and the CEO told me that somehow we'd bagged $1.3 million in government aid. This was a 65-80 person or so sized company. And sales / business had not declined at all, it was just something the head of HR / the CFO decided to apply for every dollar they could get.