Churches, Dealerships, and Franchises

[Ken]

If no culture is better than another culture, then it's not accurate to use the word "culture" to describe a lifestyle formed by intentional choices to live according to God's will.

It seems absurd to claim that no culture is better than another culture. We can make all kinds of objective judgements about different cultures. For example, living on the streets addicted to fentanyl is part of "drug culture". Joining a violent drug dealing motorcycle gang is part of "outlaw culture". And joining a cult and harassing people in airports is part of Hare Krishna culture.

Some cultures and cultural choices are deserving of respect. Some are not.

[ken_sylvania]

If no culture is better than another culture, then it's not accurate to use the word "culture" to describe a lifestyle formed by intentional choices to live according to God's will.

Right...though I think the term "God's will" needs some elucidating. Is the straight cut coat say, God's will?

Not necessarily, which is why I say "a lifestyle formed by intentional choices to live according to God's will." Our clothing standards have been developed with intent to be pleasing to God. I do not say that they are the only way to please God.

The straight cut coat is "God's will" in a way that a strap dress is not.

[Ernie]

Ernie, I'm not ready to say it's good or bad but I am pointing out it's not "staying the same" from a philosophical viewpoint and that shift likely has repercussions that should be considered as well.

Yes, I will be quick to say that there are some really negative repercussions.

However, in a world of very rapid change, I think there are good reasons for holding on to a culture, as long as it is not imposed on others who did not grow up with that culture. John D. Martin makes a case for this calling it "cultural capital". What John does not address is how we should best relate to/support Christians who did not grow up with the same cultural practices or folks with little cultural capital.

Is it your proposal that a multi-tiered system be encouraged, whereby the children of those folks with "little cultural capital" will inherit "little cultural capital" from their parents, whereas the children of those who have "abundant cultural capital" will inherit that "abundant cultural capital"?

Flawed as the conservative Mennonite community may be, the finances, emotions, and time invested in trying to help newcomers and their families assimilate into the community stands as a testament to a desire that the new community members will share in the cultural capital of the community. I'm not saying these attempts are always successful, but there certainly are sincere attempts being made.

I'm very happy to help children, youth, parents, grandparents develop as much cultural capital as they are willing to adopt. Most of my life of tried to do this sort of thing, I expect to finish up doing the same. But I would hate to deprive people of the blessings of Christian fellowship simply because they don't see a need for my culture (or all of my culture) - a culture that I think has a lot of good components for helping Christians keep from washing out spiritually.

[Ernie]

Ernie, I'm not ready to say it's good or bad but I am pointing out it's not "staying the same" from a philosophical viewpoint and that shift likely has repercussions that should be considered as well.

Yes, I will be quick to say that there are some really negative repercussions.

However, in a world of very rapid change, I think there are good reasons for holding on to a culture, as long as it is not imposed on others who did not grow up with that culture. John D. Martin makes a case for this calling it "cultural capital". What John does not address is how we should best relate to/support Christians who did not grow up with the same cultural practices or folks with little cultural capital.

I am more familiar with the term social capital than cultural capital. Social capital is often used to refer to those who have social connections that enable them to land jobs, get emergency care/support, etc.

However, is John saying, which I am sure he isn't, that one culture is better than another when he talks about more cultural capital? If he were, I can't quite go there. Folks have culture. Culture is different. But not sure it is an "ought" question so much as an "is" question. Unless one means more in the sense of social capital as I noted above...

I don't know what John would say to this, but I do not advise anyone giving up a good culture that they were raised with, in exchange for something else, unless I am confident that what they are aiming for will net them more or better capital, and unless I think there is a good chance that they will gain more than they lose. Most people lose more than they gain.

I think it is possible to exchange cultures, and gain more than one loses, but I think it is rare enough that only the humblest and those in tune with the Spirit of God are going to be able to pull it off. I think John might say that is so rare that no one should even try it.

[Ernie]

Flawed as the conservative Mennonite community may be, the finances, emotions, and time invested in trying to help newcomers and their families assimilate into the community stands as a testament to a desire that the new community members will share in the cultural capital of the community. I'm not saying these attempts are always successful, but there certainly are sincere attempts being made.

My hat is off to all those who are attempting to do this in a humble way. But it so rare that people get integrated, that I have decided to give at least a portion of the remainder of my life to helping those who probably won't ever make it, and simply help them tweak their culture in a way that is doable for them.
My guess that for every person we are able to integrate, there are 999 who we could help get into a relationship with God and help them change some aspects of their culture that are not godly, to a point where they can offer something better to their children than what they could if they never interacted with us.

[ken_sylvania]

Flawed as the conservative Mennonite community may be, the finances, emotions, and time invested in trying to help newcomers and their families assimilate into the community stands as a testament to a desire that the new community members will share in the cultural capital of the community. I'm not saying these attempts are always successful, but there certainly are sincere attempts being made.

My hat is off to all those who are attempting to do this in a humble way. But it so rare that people get integrated, that I have decided to give at least a portion of the remainder of my life to helping those who probably won't ever make it, and simply help them tweak their culture in a way that is doable for them.
My guess that for every person we are able to integrate, there are 999 who we could help get into a relationship with God and help them change some aspects of their culture that are not godly, to a point where they can offer something better to their children than what they could if they never interacted with us.

I want it to be understood that I am not critical of what you are doing.

I do disagree with what feels to me like a false dichotomy in your argument - I don't think that it's an either-or scenario where the traditional assimilation goal prevents us from helping those other 999 to change and improve areas where their culture is deficient. Many of the plain Mennonites I know do quite a bit of reaching out and ministering to neighbors and others.

I am skeptical about the accuracy of your 999:1 ratio of persons to be helped - the 999 would need to be in addition to the current interactions as well as not result in losing the existing structure and "culture."

[Sudsy]

Quite an interesting read, this thread. Now for a little shot at 'conservative Christians'. The 'holier-than-thou' group.

It often sounds to me like the most godly, most spiritual, most holy 'culture' in how to follow Jesus is the one today labelled in Anabaptism as 'Conservative'. This sounds quite like the religious 'culture' that existed in Jesus time called Phariseeism. Although thought to be the 'highest, closest to God' culture of that day by the Pharisees, Jesus punched some pretty big holes in it. They were living under a delusion that they were the real holy ones and looked down their noses at others who did not live up to their strict standards and ways of their religion. So, I wonder just what Jesus would say today to those who follow the many perceived holy ways of those who consider themselves 'conservative'. Would He have a sermon on the 7 woes of those who consider themselves 'conservative' ? I think He may.

One area especially that Jesus did was not to withdraw Himself from the world as His mission was to save sinners. He didn't participate in sinful ways but at the same time lived amongst sinners and shared life with them where they lived. So, for me, any form of Christianity that is more keen on their religious ways such as dress and simplicity more than their efforts to being the means Jesus uses to seek and to save the lost, puts up a big warning sign and reminds me of the Pharisee religion in Jesus day.

There said my part but I was getting from some posts that the 'elite' group of Anabaptist Christ followers are the 'CAs' and the very thought of leaving this group is stepping down in one's relationship with the Lord. I grew up in something similar in Pentecostalism where there was a certain looking down on other Christians who were 'not filled with the Holy Spirit' as they hadn't 'spoken in unknown tongues'. Scripture says God resists the proud and gives His grace to the humble. Something for us to keep in mind.

[RZehr]

Reminds me of-

Hypocrisy is the compliment that Vice pays to virtue. If you are so obsessed with avoiding hypocrisy, all you really got to do is not stand for anything. But if you’re gonna stand for virtue, if you’re gonna strive for it, then at some point, inevitably, you’re gonna fall short if the mark. And when you do, you get up, admit it, and try to do better.
But you never let yourself fall into that bitter cynicism that never strives for virtue in the first place, and instead contents itself in sitting around and lambasting and criticizing the efforts of others.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Flawed as the conservative Mennonite community may be, the finances, emotions, and time invested in trying to help newcomers and their families assimilate into the community stands as a testament to a desire that the new community members will share in the cultural capital of the community. I'm not saying these attempts are always successful, but there certainly are sincere attempts being made.

My hat is off to all those who are attempting to do this in a humble way. But it so rare that people get integrated, that I have decided to give at least a portion of the remainder of my life to helping those who probably won't ever make it, and simply help them tweak their culture in a way that is doable for them.
My guess that for every person we are able to integrate, there are 999 who we could help get into a relationship with God and help them change some aspects of their culture that are not godly, to a point where they can offer something better to their children than what they could if they never interacted with us.

Anyone who is a part of, or preferably a member of a conservative anabaptist church has indescribable social capital. I have seen it when things go wrong, as well as when things go right.

[Josh]

Quite an interesting read, this thread. Now for a little shot at 'conservative Christians'. The 'holier-than-thou' group.

It often sounds to me like the most godly, most spiritual, most holy 'culture' in how to follow Jesus is the one today labelled in Anabaptism as 'Conservative'. This sounds quite like the religious 'culture' that existed in Jesus time called Phariseeism. Although thought to be the 'highest, closest to God' culture of that day by the Pharisees, Jesus punched some pretty big holes in it. They were living under a delusion that they were the real holy ones and looked down their noses at others who did not live up to their strict standards and ways of their religion. So, I wonder just what Jesus would say today to those who follow the many perceived holy ways of those who consider themselves 'conservative'. Would He have a sermon on the 7 woes of those who consider themselves 'conservative' ? I think He may.

One area especially that Jesus did was not to withdraw Himself from the world as His mission was to save sinners. He didn't participate in sinful ways but at the same time lived amongst sinners and shared life with them where they lived. So, for me, any form of Christianity that is more keen on their religious ways such as dress and simplicity more than their efforts to being the means Jesus uses to seek and to save the lost, puts up a big warning sign and reminds me of the Pharisee religion in Jesus day.

There said my part but I was getting from some posts that the 'elite' group of Anabaptist Christ followers are the 'CAs' and the very thought of leaving this group is stepping down in one's relationship with the Lord. I grew up in something similar in Pentecostalism where there was a certain looking down on other Christians who were 'not filled with the Holy Spirit' as they hadn't 'spoken in unknown tongues'. Scripture says God resists the proud and gives His grace to the humble. Something for us to keep in mind.

If the New Testament intended to say, "People who wear head coverings are Pharisees," it would say so. It doesn't.