Churches, Dealerships, and Franchises

[Ernie]

In my mental hypothesis, those who grew up in Plain Anabaptist church would be expected to keep being Plain, and those who grew up in Evangelical churches and other not as disciplined backgrounds would be encouraged/expected to head in the direction of adding more disciplines to their lives, not less.

What existing constituencies would meet the criteria of not being transitional? This would end up being some ultra-conservative groups, some of BMA, some of the Amish groups that left the main OO like the Dan church, Swartzies, Holdemans, the Scottsville-type churches, and so forth. But these groups are already very happy fellowshipping amongst themselves, and furthermore, think it's not a good idea to associate with people who are quite a bit more worldly (or quite a bit less).

They would be uncomfortable working too closely alongside each other. To give an example, Holdemans decided they don't want their young people participating in CAM type of activities, because it was too confusing for the young people to be around people who seemed to have a good spiritual life, yet were doing things like watching movies on their phone, listening to recorded music, and taking lots of photographs.

Likewise, a lot of more conservative Mennonites wouldn't want to associate too closely with Holdemans because they would feel our clothing is too worldly or they would be bothered by differing definitions of prohibited D&R.

The Scottsville-type churches don't want to be around Anabaptists who drive cars because they don't want their people to get into the habit of being comfortable hiring drivers.

In short, to find unity, there is more needed than simply a desire to not be transitional.

True. I am just saying that to have a range of acceptable practices in a church, you need to have a church full of mature, principled people who don't love the world, nor the things of the world.
A few examples:
1. On the conservative side, you might have folks who dress very distinctly but simply. (e.g. straight cut coats that are like a jacket without all the fineries) At the other end of the spectrum, you might have folks who wear thrift store clothing, but everyone in the church is dressing modestly.
2. On one side, you might have folks who live very simply, and engineer their own way of getting their van started such as a push button to run the fuel pump for 15 seconds prior to trying to start the car, and a metal rod sticking out of the dash that adjusts the vent. (I rode in such a vehicle recently.) On the other side you have someone who drives a good serviceable vehicle, and does not attempt to justify luxurious expenditures.
3. On one side you might have folks who refrain from all internet. On the other side you have folks who have internet as a tool, but don't use it for endless entertainment, social media, movies, and watching sports.

[Soloist]

IIRC they have restrictions on employment that even Eastern does not have, right?

Yeah, I couldn’t work as a nurse or any academics. This would effectively leave me with untrained manual labor. That won’t pay the bills unless I’m being given a generosity job.

[Josh]

True. I am just saying that to have a range of acceptable practices in a church, you need to have a church full of mature, principled people who don't love the world, nor the things of the world.
A few examples:
1. On the conservative side, you might have folks who dress very distinctly but simply. (e.g. straight cut coats that are like a jacket without all the fineries) At the other end of the spectrum, you might have folks who wear thrift store clothing, but everyone in the church is dressing modestly.
2. On one side, you might have folks who live very simply, and engineer their own way of getting their van started such as a push button to run the fuel pump for 15 seconds prior to trying to start the car, and a metal rod sticking out of the dash that adjusts the vent. (I rode in such a vehicle recently.) On the other side you have someone who drives a good serviceable vehicle, and does not attempt to justify luxurious expenditures.
3. On one side you might have folks who refrain from all internet. On the other side you have folks who have internet as a tool, but don't use it for endless entertainment, social media, movies, and watching sports.

In practical terms, trying to reconcile the two and come together becomes nearly impossible when you try to do things like come together for sewing, or ministering to seekers, or running a school. If some parents don't want any Internet, and some are OK with it, how is that going to work out in the school setting? Can they use Internet in the school or not?

[Ken]

True. I am just saying that to have a range of acceptable practices in a church, you need to have a church full of mature, principled people who don't love the world, nor the things of the world.
A few examples:
1. On the conservative side, you might have folks who dress very distinctly but simply. (e.g. straight cut coats that are like a jacket without all the fineries) At the other end of the spectrum, you might have folks who wear thrift store clothing, but everyone in the church is dressing modestly.
2. On one side, you might have folks who live very simply, and engineer their own way of getting their van started such as a push button to run the fuel pump for 15 seconds prior to trying to start the car, and a metal rod sticking out of the dash that adjusts the vent. (I rode in such a vehicle recently.) On the other side you have someone who drives a good serviceable vehicle, and does not attempt to justify luxurious expenditures.
3. On one side you might have folks who refrain from all internet. On the other side you have folks who have internet as a tool, but don't use it for endless entertainment, social media, movies, and watching sports.

In practical terms, trying to reconcile the two and come together becomes nearly impossible when you try to do things like come together for sewing, or ministering to seekers, or running a school. If some parents don't want any Internet, and some are OK with it, how is that going to work out in the school setting? Can they use Internet in the school or not?

That isn't just a conservative Anabaptist thing. I have the infrequent student whose parents do not allow computer use and so aren't allowed school issued Chromebooks and don't have their own phones. It kind of sucks for the student because they are stuck doing old paper worksheets or just working out of old textbooks since I don't have the time or inclination to create a whole new class out of whole cloth just for one student.

[NedFlanders]

True. I am just saying that to have a range of acceptable practices in a church, you need to have a church full of mature, principled people who don't love the world, nor the things of the world.
A few examples:
1. On the conservative side, you might have folks who dress very distinctly but simply. (e.g. straight cut coats that are like a jacket without all the fineries) At the other end of the spectrum, you might have folks who wear thrift store clothing, but everyone in the church is dressing modestly.
2. On one side, you might have folks who live very simply, and engineer their own way of getting their van started such as a push button to run the fuel pump for 15 seconds prior to trying to start the car, and a metal rod sticking out of the dash that adjusts the vent. (I rode in such a vehicle recently.) On the other side you have someone who drives a good serviceable vehicle, and does not attempt to justify luxurious expenditures.
3. On one side you might have folks who refrain from all internet. On the other side you have folks who have internet as a tool, but don't use it for endless entertainment, social media, movies, and watching sports.

In practical terms, trying to reconcile the two and come together becomes nearly impossible when you try to do things like come together for sewing, or ministering to seekers, or running a school. If some parents don't want any Internet, and some are OK with it, how is that going to work out in the school setting? Can they use Internet in the school or not?

I’m not sure why this would be an issue for sewing and ministering?

Filtered internet. And why would there be internet in school? I don’t see why anyone needing internet as a work tool or etc. would demand children have it in school?

[Ernie]

In practical terms, trying to reconcile the two and come together becomes nearly impossible when you try to do things like come together for sewing, or ministering to seekers, or running a school. If some parents don't want any Internet, and some are OK with it, how is that going to work out in the school setting? Can they use Internet in the school or not?

I’m not sure why this would be an issue for sewing and ministering?

Filtered internet. And why would there be internet in school? I don’t see why anyone needing internet as a work tool or etc. would demand children have it in school?

If you respect the convictions of others, you try not to do things around them that makes them uncomfortable. When I get around some of my family members, I avoid whipping out my smartphone to check messages when we are together visiting.

At our church we have quite a bit of variety, and the variety keeps increasing. But the increase is because we have people in the church who do not want to respect the convictions of others, plus they are philosophically and religiously opposed to setting parameters, and they do not like to get the input of the congregation before widening the circle. So as long as we have these sorts of dynamics going on, I expect our church will be a transitional church.

People need to be on board with accountability, have respect for the convictions of others, and support a corporate Rule of Life, in order for my hypothesis to have any chance of working.

Our attempt at having a school the last 7 years is ending this spring due to too many ideas about how to have school. So, I can understand why you would wonder whether there is enough unity to accomplish anything.

The reason our school is quitting is because one family wants as little school as possible, another one wants as much as is possible, and third wants to pick their own curriculum. And... people have lots of time and money for all sorts of things, but little time and money for operating a school, and little money for paying a teacher a living wage. And people who don't like parameters, don't like experienced teachers and school boards telling them how to have a high quality school.

[NedFlanders]

In practical terms, trying to reconcile the two and come together becomes nearly impossible when you try to do things like come together for sewing, or ministering to seekers, or running a school. If some parents don't want any Internet, and some are OK with it, how is that going to work out in the school setting? Can they use Internet in the school or not?

I’m not sure why this would be an issue for sewing and ministering?

Filtered internet. And why would there be internet in school? I don’t see why anyone needing internet as a work tool or etc. would demand children have it in school?

If you respect the convictions of others, you try not to do things around them that makes them uncomfortable. When I get around some of my family members, I avoid whipping out my smartphone to check messages when we are together visiting.

At our church we have quite a bit of variety, and the variety keeps increasing. But the increase is because we have people in the church who do not want to respect the convictions of others, plus they are philosophically and religiously opposed to setting parameters, and they do not like to get the input of the congregation before widening the circle. So as long as we have these sorts of dynamics going on, I expect our church will be a transitional church.

People need to be on board with accountability, have respect for the convictions of others, and support a corporate Rule of Life, in order for my hypothesis to have any chance of working.

Our attempt at having a school the last 7 years is ending this spring due to too many ideas about how to have school. So, I can understand why you would wonder whether there is enough unity to accomplish anything.

The reason our school is quitting is because one family wants as little school as possible, another one wants as much as is possible, and third wants to pick their own curriculum. And... people have lots of time and money for all sorts of things, but little time and money for operating a school, and little money for paying a teacher a living wage. And people who don't like parameters, don't like experienced teachers and school boards telling them how to have a high quality school.

Sorry to hear this…

[NedFlanders]

IIRC they have restrictions on employment that even Eastern does not have, right?

Yeah, I couldn’t work as a nurse or any academics. This would effectively leave me with untrained manual labor. That won’t pay the bills unless I’m being given a generosity job.

How long did you attend a Nationwide church?

The reason for the question is that if you haven’t attended I think you’ll find many churches hesitant (including some less conservative churches) in encouraging you to switch and/or move to them if you do much anything outside the norm of what they general practice. This is in part to protect you from coming and then regretting it, nor are they looking to steal sheep , so if you are a member somewhere they may not show much enthusiasm in convincing you to come.

I believe if you attended for a period of time and showed every fruit of wanting to not be different or cause division in doing things a bit different I’d be hard pressed to believe they would outright reject you for being a nurse. I know for some churches this to be absolutely true they would let you be a nurse, but yes, there are some that might draw that line against it no matter what - maybe you found a church like that?

[Judas Maccabeus]

IIRC they have restrictions on employment that even Eastern does not have, right?

Yeah, I couldn’t work as a nurse or any academics. This would effectively leave me with untrained manual labor. That won’t pay the bills unless I’m being given a generosity job.

Yeah. Do you know what their issue is with nursing. In other settings, it is the first reason people are permitted to go to further education. I was in a Nationwide home, and there was a guy there who had to leave a job as fire alarm installer. My mind said "really?????" although I did not vocalize that.

[Judas Maccabeus]

IIRC they have restrictions on employment that even Eastern does not have, right?

Yeah, I couldn’t work as a nurse or any academics. This would effectively leave me with untrained manual labor. That won’t pay the bills unless I’m being given a generosity job.

How long did you attend a Nationwide church?

The reason for the question is that if you haven’t attended I think you’ll find many churches hesitant (including some less conservative churches) in encouraging you to switch and/or move to them if you do much anything outside the norm of what they general practice. This is in part to protect you from coming and then regretting it, nor are they looking to steal sheep , so if you are a member somewhere they may not show much enthusiasm in convincing you to come.

I believe if you attended for a period of time and showed every fruit of wanting to not be different or cause division in doing things a bit different I’d be hard pressed to believe they would outright reject you for being a nurse. I know for some churches this to be absolutely true they would let you be a nurse, but yes, there are some that might draw that line against it no matter what - maybe you found a church like that?

A KMF church would not question anyone being a nurse. Both my wife, my bishop's wife and at least one other gal in our church. Old Order River Brethren the same. They have enough to staff a small hospital.

Nationwide not so much. I don't know what their actual restriction is, but I know at least three people who could not join for that reason, unless they quit their job.